#linuxcnc-meet Log v0.1

logs Catalogue

days :1401
Table logs
date_time
user
message
2013-06-29 11:40:00
archivist
if the topic is of the form "meeting 20130629 itemid all the other text" it will be logged to the recorded agenda ok
2013-06-29 14:01:37
mshaver1
I just posted a note to -developers and -users to try to get more people here...
2013-06-29 14:09:40
mshaver1
I also posted a correction to my note to fix the wrong time... Here's hoping I didn't screw this up too bad :)
2013-06-29 14:24:49
skunkworks
mshaver1: it is sort of hard to find the meeting place... it seems to only be here... http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?MeetingsOnIRC
2013-06-29 14:26:33
mshaver1
skunkworks: That's where I had to go to look it up. Agreed - We need to learn how to announce things in advance and in a way that people can understand.
2013-06-29 14:26:57
cradek
2.5 hrs from now, right?
2013-06-29 14:27:20
archivist
mshaver1, like even mentioning the channel in ones email :)
2013-06-29 14:27:20
PetefromTn
morning folks.
2013-06-29 14:28:43
mshaver1
9:00am Eastern is 1:00pm GMT, so 4:00pm GMT (16:00) should be 12:00Noon Eastern. Yep, 2-1/2 hours from now!
2013-06-29 14:29:10
archivist
5pm BST
2013-06-29 14:29:14
PetefromTn
aw I thought it was now 9am eastern...
2013-06-29 14:30:36
mshaver1
archivist: The other issue is informeing folks about how to get on IRC, what client to use for their OS, etc.
2013-06-29 14:31:29
mshaver1
PetefromTn: Are you the Pete from TN I know?
2013-06-29 14:31:32
archivist
there is a page on the main site somewhere
2013-06-29 14:31:57
PetefromTn
mshaver1: I dunno who are you LOL?
2013-06-29 14:32:33
mshaver1
True. I remember I didn't have much luck with the Java-in-a-browser method referred to on that page.
2013-06-29 14:32:58
archivist
I never use that either, I use xchat
2013-06-29 14:33:08
cdsteinkuehler
I'm using webchat.freenode.net, and if this comes through it seems to be working OK.
2013-06-29 14:33:11
tjtr33
xchat here on ubu 10.04
2013-06-29 14:33:37
PetefromTn
Quassel here...
2013-06-29 14:33:38
archivist
tjtr33, ew modern OS mine is 8.04 :)
2013-06-29 14:34:22
tjtr33
:)
2013-06-29 14:34:26
mshaver1
PetefromTn: I'm just Matt Shaver from Maryland - I was wondering if you were Pete Ready from Lebanon, TN.
2013-06-29 14:35:12
PetefromTn
No sorry not Pete Ready... I'm from Maryville, Tn.
2013-06-29 14:37:25
PetefromTn
Just a noob, did my first LinuxCNC retrofit on my Cincinatti Arrow 500 VMC. It's working now but still tinkering with the toolchanger and spindle feedback.
2013-06-29 14:37:42
mshaver1
Well who would've thought.. Two guys named Pete who live in TN... :) I always misunderstand how big the world is :)
2013-06-29 14:38:18
PetefromTn
LOL yeah funny ol world. Nice to meet ya tho...!
2013-06-29 14:39:14
mshaver1
Same here! If your machine works at all, you've passed the noob stage.
2013-06-29 14:39:34
PetefromTn
Funny thing is I THOUGHT I knew a guy from Knoxville named Matt Shaver or something similar to shaver and thought it might be you when you asked.
2013-06-29 14:40:24
mshaver1
There's a tattoo artist out there somewhere with my name, along with a few others...
2013-06-29 14:41:31
PetefromTn
Yeah it works alright. Used the VMC to machine myself a nice stainless steel bodied flycutter adapter to fit on my Cat40 facemill holder the other day and then used that to surface some sacrificial vise jaws yesterday. Now I am working on building a High speed spindle adapter for a router so I can make wood and plastic stuff at higher speeds than the 6k of the factory spindle.
2013-06-29 14:42:01
PetefromTn
I have this dream of building a SICK electric guitar at some point on my CNC for myself. LOL
2013-06-29 14:42:57
PetefromTn
The Toolchanger already partly works. The power drawbar is working, the tool carousel ram is working, some sensors are working but I need to machine an encoder mount for the spindle feedback and indexing. have not gotten that part sorted yet. LOL
2013-06-29 14:43:23
PetefromTn
This Matt was into precision airguns like me...
2013-06-29 14:48:52
cdsteinkuehler
I'll be back for the actual meeting, but have to go get some stuff done now. See you all in a couple hours!
2013-06-29 14:49:28
mshaver1
PetefromTn: This guy lives a few miles from me, though I've never met him personally: http://www.glbarnes.com/
2013-06-29 14:50:17
PetefromTn
OH GB!! He is amazing. I met him once at Standing Stone here in KY.... Nice fellow.
2013-06-29 14:50:34
PetefromTn
I build my own precision airguns too from scratch.
2013-06-29 14:50:35
mshaver1
Me too, I'm going down to the shop - the central air is busted and I've got a shipment of copper fittings from Mcmaster-Carr waiting for me :)
2013-06-29 14:51:22
PetefromTn
I suppose I could go and run that High Speed Spindle mount program now....
2013-06-29 14:52:03
tjtr33
wait! the intent is obviously unclear from statements on #linuxcnc, i'll try to bail water,
2013-06-29 14:52:22
mshaver1
PetefromTn: I had a friend, George (now deceased) who knew GB in high school. George said GB was not especially skilled in high school shop class, but he has obviously improved with age :)
2013-06-29 14:54:21
PetefromTn
mshaver1: LOL isnt that the way of things..
2013-06-29 14:54:52
PetefromTn
The stuff he used to make a couple years back was impressive to say the least.
2013-06-29 14:55:49
mshaver1
I have no good excuse for not going over to his place and making his acquaintance...
2013-06-29 14:57:16
gene_
Morning all
2013-06-29 14:57:20
PetefromTn
you should, he is kinda a great big norsemen sorta nice fellow who knows everything there is to know about big bore airguns LOL
2013-06-29 14:59:09
mhaberler
if I get this right this starts in an hour from now?
2013-06-29 15:01:00
Tom_itx
i was told 11 cdt which would be 2
2013-06-29 15:01:06
gene_
Good, time for a short nap :)
2013-06-29 15:01:08
Tom_itx
at least the wiki says that
2013-06-29 15:01:14
tjtr33
mhaberler, near abouts, hiya hiya
2013-06-29 15:01:17
Tom_itx
1600gmt
2013-06-29 15:01:30
archivist
2 hrs
2013-06-29 15:03:30
Tom_itx
helps to copy the right file over
2013-06-29 15:08:32
mhaberler
well I'm in the west coast reality distortion field, so I tak now + 2hrs for granted, cu
2013-06-29 15:09:21
tjtr33
this clock app in ubu is nuts, found gmt, and the display happily confuses me with "gmt 2:07 pm gmt +5" , the +5 is about my location, not greenwich
2013-06-29 15:10:11
tjtr33
be careful out there, that west coast is full of ... californians!
2013-06-29 15:20:47
andypugh
http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_UTC.aspx
2013-06-29 15:24:20
mshaver1
OK, I'll be back in an hour and a half...
2013-06-29 16:36:01
Kenneth_Lerman
I see that the wench is here. If we are going to party, we should remember that the wench will be keeping a record of what transpired. Don't say anything you wouldn't want to appear in public. :-)
2013-06-29 16:38:30
skunkworks
Kenneth_Lerman: #%$$@%^^ it ;)
2013-06-29 16:40:42
mhaberler
"Berkeley: 29 square miles entirely surrounded by reality"
2013-06-29 16:41:32
Alan__
First
2013-06-29 16:41:54
Alan__
first time I've done this!
2013-06-29 16:42:36
archivist
and it didnt hurt at all
2013-06-29 16:49:33
zultron
Speaking of logs, is anyone going to log this meeting? I'll have a copy in case it's not set up in time.
2013-06-29 16:49:58
archivist
bookmark
2013-06-29 16:50:19
mhaberler
ah, excellent
2013-06-29 16:50:21
zultron
Ah hah! Thanks!
2013-06-29 16:50:36
mhaberler
for next time around I'll have the mah and psha bots on the case too
2013-06-29 16:50:45
cradek
yes thanks for doing that
2013-06-29 16:51:27
archivist
I am logging topic changes too and have other control statements set up
2013-06-29 16:51:51
archivist
http://meetlog.archivist.info/help.php
2013-06-29 16:52:45
cradek
we sure have a lot of agenda for the first meeting, but we don't yet know how a meeting should work
2013-06-29 16:52:54
cradek
I wonder how we should deal with that
2013-06-29 16:53:46
archivist
some brave person should work through I suppose, and as only ops can change topic...not me
2013-06-29 16:53:54
mhaberler
designate a moderator and a scribe; poor moderator should sort it out
2013-06-29 16:54:09
cradek
I'm willing to moderate this first one
2013-06-29 16:54:26
cradek
in that case I'd suggest we do the meta-agenda items first
2013-06-29 16:54:29
mhaberler
yes
2013-06-29 16:54:56
Kenneth_Lerman
Since cradek set up the channel, I nominate him as acting chairman until we fire him. His job will be to act as a moderator. Drat, I type too slowly.
2013-06-29 16:55:00
cradek
I've already changed my mind about some of them so it oughta be interesting :-)
2013-06-29 16:55:06
mhaberler
also rundown of any decision items (maybe at the end) plus decisions taken
2013-06-29 16:56:15
Kenneth_Lerman
I nominate the_wench to be our scribe.
2013-06-29 16:56:20
mhaberler
as a rule, there should be no decision items which were not on the agenda because that would deprive people of the chance to consider them in advance which is the whole purpose of an agenda
2013-06-29 16:56:41
cradek
mhaberler: yeah I wondered about a similar thing. maybe the agenda should be frozen for some time before the meeting.
2013-06-29 16:57:01
mhaberler
absolutely
2013-06-29 16:57:17
zultron
agreed.
2013-06-29 16:57:20
mhaberler
maybe a day in advance next time
2013-06-29 16:57:47
cradek
I have frozen the agenda page now
2013-06-29 16:58:10
mhaberler
meaning r/o?
2013-06-29 16:58:10
Kenneth_Lerman
A day is probably too short for an organization that spans 24 time zones.
2013-06-29 16:58:14
cradek
at least I think so (never tried that before)
2013-06-29 16:58:20
zultron
Or a couple. :) That would also prevent any race conditions for folks madly editing the agenda page last-minute at the same time.
2013-06-29 16:58:37
mhaberler
well fine, make that three
2013-06-29 16:58:39
mshaver1
OK, so start with approving or disapproving the first meta item that begins, "I propose that agenda items should be concrete proposals and not open questions..."
2013-06-29 16:58:42
cradek
heck it could even be a week.
2013-06-29 16:58:56
cradek
mshaver1: don't jump the gun...
2013-06-29 16:59:05
zultron
Still two minutes. :)
2013-06-29 16:59:06
mshaver1
OK
2013-06-29 16:59:07
Kenneth_Lerman
Can we have an append only agenda? That would prevent races from being a problem.
2013-06-29 16:59:08
seb_kuzminsky
hello friends!
2013-06-29 16:59:12
cradek
SYNCHRONIZE WATCHES
2013-06-29 16:59:14
zultron
Hola, seb_kuzminsky
2013-06-29 16:59:16
ssi
or my mark
2013-06-29 16:59:18
ssi
on even
2013-06-29 16:59:35
cdsteinkuehler
30 seconds...
2013-06-29 16:59:42
zultron
Hi cdsteinkuehler !
2013-06-29 16:59:57
ssi
the things it takes to drag some folks to IRC ;)
2013-06-29 17:00:00
mhaberler
maybe we should spell out expectations of the scribe
2013-06-29 17:00:01
cdsteinkuehler
Greetings....who brought the doughnuts?!?
2013-06-29 17:00:07
archivist
!start 201606 the meeting has started
2013-06-29 17:00:18
Kenneth_Lerman
I've got the carrots.
2013-06-29 17:00:23
cradek
ok, since my name's on that, I'll introduce it.
2013-06-29 17:00:25
mhaberler
Andy?
2013-06-29 17:00:58
PetefromTn
I want a damn doughnut...
2013-06-29 17:01:01
cradek
I think having proposals, not questions, for agenda items will lead to concrete results
2013-06-29 17:01:21
cradek
like I spelled out, I think they should be of the form "I think we should do this"
2013-06-29 17:01:24
seb_kuzminsky
or at least *more likely* to lead to concrete results
2013-06-29 17:01:35
cradek
very true
2013-06-29 17:01:42
seb_kuzminsky
i think that's a good goal for these meeting discussions, so i approve of this proposal
2013-06-29 17:01:49
Kenneth_Lerman
Agreed. Robert's rules of order... there must be a motion on the floor to have a discussion. A proposal is pretty much the same as a motion.
2013-06-29 17:01:57
mhaberler
add a "questions" section to agenda, that clarifies status
2013-06-29 17:01:58
mshaver1
I agree, make decisions only here.
2013-06-29 17:02:21
PetefromTn
where is this agenda?
2013-06-29 17:02:29
mhaberler
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Meeting201306
2013-06-29 17:02:32
seb_kuzminsky
PetefromTn: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Meeting201306
2013-06-29 17:02:33
cradek
mhaberler: I think questions are best discussed in the times/places outside the meeting, and then a proposal can be written
2013-06-29 17:02:37
Kenneth_Lerman
Chris: please call the question. -- Ask for a vote.
2013-06-29 17:02:38
PetefromTn
thanks seb
2013-06-29 17:02:41
mhaberler
fine
2013-06-29 17:02:54
alex_joni
howdy y'all
2013-06-29 17:02:59
seb_kuzminsky
hi alex!
2013-06-29 17:02:59
cradek
Kenneth_Lerman: I think we're still discussing
2013-06-29 17:03:08
cradek
hi everyone
2013-06-29 17:03:14
tjtr33
hi all
2013-06-29 17:03:20
cradek
for new arrivals: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Meeting201306
2013-06-29 17:03:28
PetefromTn
helllo everyone.
2013-06-29 17:03:29
cradek
we're on "agenda items should be proposals", see the topic
2013-06-29 17:03:30
Kenneth_Lerman
No one has disagreed.
2013-06-29 17:03:34
andypugh
Are we quorate? :-)
2013-06-29 17:03:38
seb_kuzminsky
maybe the link should be in the topic? along with the current agenda item
2013-06-29 17:03:44
zultron
And more generally: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?MeetingsOnIRC
2013-06-29 17:04:01
Tom_itx
zultron, zlog logs
2013-06-29 17:04:02
mshaver1
The only problem with questions is that it would make the meetings too long. Maybe afterword?
2013-06-29 17:04:17
cradek
mshaver1: yes, ideally in the other channels
2013-06-29 17:04:24
seb_kuzminsky
i'd like to keep the meetings short
2013-06-29 17:04:29
cradek
exactly
2013-06-29 17:04:30
mshaver1
or maybe afterward...
2013-06-29 17:04:37
cradek
we don't need a third generic chat channel
2013-06-29 17:04:55
micges
I agree also with "I think we should do this" approach
2013-06-29 17:05:05
cradek
if something is added to the agenda that is not a proposal, should we just skip it and let the author rewrite it for next time?
2013-06-29 17:05:14
tjtr33
for an example ( ignore the specifics ) does my suggestion fit the definition of a proposal?
2013-06-29 17:05:17
zultron
cradek, no questions!
2013-06-29 17:05:21
cradek
haha
2013-06-29 17:05:23
mhaberler
yes, postpone
2013-06-29 17:05:40
seb_kuzminsky
ok, so the proposal is: "questions & general discussions at any time on #linuxcnc-devel or emc-developers mailing list, #linuxcnc-meet is for making decisions"
2013-06-29 17:05:52
cdsteinkuehler
+1 on making decisions!
2013-06-29 17:05:59
mhaberler
tjtr33: I think it does
2013-06-29 17:06:07
cradek
is there any disagreement?
2013-06-29 17:06:21
zultron
#linuxcnc too; users should be included!
2013-06-29 17:06:31
seb_kuzminsky
zultron: good point
2013-06-29 17:06:35
mhaberler
no, except making a decision will likely imply a bit of discussion
2013-06-29 17:06:43
seb_kuzminsky
such as this!
2013-06-29 17:06:47
PetefromTn
does anyone who uses LinuxCNC have a say here?
2013-06-29 17:07:04
mshaver1
yes
2013-06-29 17:07:13
mhaberler
I would think everybody tuned in is part of the quorum
2013-06-29 17:07:16
alex_joni
I'd say if something is on the list which isn't a proposal, at least discuss if it should get turned into a proposal
2013-06-29 17:07:18
Kenneth_Lerman
We have no membership rules. Sign in, you get to vote.
2013-06-29 17:07:21
cradek
PetefromTn: very low bar -- if you bother to show up you have a voice
2013-06-29 17:07:27
seb_kuzminsky
PetefromTn: i think so, but i'm worried about users making decisions about what developers should do without also signing up for doing the work
2013-06-29 17:07:41
zultron
Yes, users are valuable members of the community. (Hope I interpreted the question correctly)
2013-06-29 17:07:53
tjtr33
cradek, i dont exactly agre, i think discussion should include #linuxcnc ( not just linuxcnc-devel)
2013-06-29 17:07:59
mhaberler
the option is always to slack off in implementing the user decision ;)
2013-06-29 17:08:15
seb_kuzminsky
true! but then what does a decision mean?
2013-06-29 17:08:19
cradek
tjtr33: I think discussion should be everywhere we currently interact
2013-06-29 17:08:28
tjtr33
agreed thx
2013-06-29 17:08:34
alex_joni
agreed too
2013-06-29 17:08:35
Kenneth_Lerman
The meeting determines the priorities. The implementers determine what actually gets done.
2013-06-29 17:08:42
mhaberler
its a statement of direction as far as I'm concerned, so it should be taken as a guideline
2013-06-29 17:08:50
cradek
it's not going to work that we use the meeting as a way to assign work to whoever doesn't show up to vote against his assignment
2013-06-29 17:08:54
andypugh
seb_kuzminsky: Let's worry about that if it happens.
2013-06-29 17:09:04
seb_kuzminsky
Kenneth_Lerman: that sounds right
2013-06-29 17:09:08
seb_kuzminsky
andypugh: i agree
2013-06-29 17:09:21
cradek
I expect everyone to come in good faith and with understanding of the situation
2013-06-29 17:09:38
seb_kuzminsky
ok, sounds like we're about done with agenda item 1
2013-06-29 17:09:44
mhaberler
the others confess now please
2013-06-29 17:10:24
mshaver1
mhaberler: Are you asking if there is any disagreement?
2013-06-29 17:10:43
mhaberler
no, if clueless or folks in bad faith are out here..
2013-06-29 17:10:44
PetefromTn
I am no programmer but I use the system and am very impressed and want to see it only improve, the fact that I don't know jack about programming should not change that I would hope.
2013-06-29 17:10:52
zultron
Yes, I propose users be included. By including users, they will feel they have a greater stake in the project, and will therefore be more likely to contribute.
2013-06-29 17:11:03
archivist
it is dangerous for project devs to overtly ignore users, an easy way to upset the apple cart
2013-06-29 17:11:05
cradek
ok, let's vote on #1, summarized as: agenda items should be concrete proposals; those that aren't can be skipped and rewritten for the next meeting; discussion is best kept in the other channels, lists, forum
2013-06-29 17:11:07
Kenneth_Lerman
3 .... 2 ... 1... cradek, please bang your gavel on the table.
2013-06-29 17:11:17
cradek
I vote yes
2013-06-29 17:11:20
seb_kuzminsky
yes
2013-06-29 17:11:20
ssi
yes
2013-06-29 17:11:20
archivist
yes
2013-06-29 17:11:22
tjtr33
mhaberler, i get it, i have good faith but maybe not understanding :/
2013-06-29 17:11:22
steve_stallings
yes
2013-06-29 17:11:23
mshaver1
yes
2013-06-29 17:11:24
jepler
yes
2013-06-29 17:11:24
Kenneth_Lerman
yes
2013-06-29 17:11:26
alex_joni
yes
2013-06-29 17:11:26
micges
yes
2013-06-29 17:11:29
cmorley
I vote yes
2013-06-29 17:11:29
tjtr33
yes
2013-06-29 17:11:30
mhaberler
yes
2013-06-29 17:11:32
DaveCVI
yes
2013-06-29 17:11:36
cdsteinkuehler
yes
2013-06-29 17:11:40
viesturs
yes
2013-06-29 17:11:48
PetefromTn
yes
2013-06-29 17:12:12
ArcEye
yes
2013-06-29 17:12:13
steve_stallings
....hindsight.... priceless timing
2013-06-29 17:12:40
seb_kuzminsky
sweet
2013-06-29 17:12:42
cradek
I think that's everyone?
2013-06-29 17:12:54
seb_kuzminsky
maybe there should be a 1 minute voting window?
2013-06-29 17:12:56
zultron
Aye
2013-06-29 17:12:56
zultron
(actually meta-agenda item #1, to clear up my own confusion)
2013-06-29 17:13:14
ssi
seb_kuzminsky: are you adding that to the meta agenda?
2013-06-29 17:13:15
PetefromTn
one minute is pretty tight
2013-06-29 17:13:36
seb_kuzminsky
ssi: sorry! i'll add it to the agenda for next meeting! :-)
2013-06-29 17:13:38
cradek
with irc we can all type our votes at the same time
2013-06-29 17:13:43
cradek
this is working well so far
2013-06-29 17:13:46
tjtr33
try it, use 1 minute, keeps us agile
2013-06-29 17:14:05
Kenneth_Lerman
we took 13 minutes to get thru the first agenda item that was uncontested. 15 minutes is too little for discussion. I suggest that the timing is at the discretion of the moderator.
2013-06-29 17:14:18
ssi
agreed
2013-06-29 17:14:20
cradek
ok the second item: I think a time limit is good - I think if we don't have suitable agreement the discussion should happen outside the meeting.
2013-06-29 17:14:21
zultron
No questions, only proposals!
2013-06-29 17:14:33
mshaver1
I'm thinking that most decisions will be near unanimous, so when responses die out, that's it.
2013-06-29 17:14:35
cradek
none of us want to spend out entire saturdays here
2013-06-29 17:14:35
jepler
If an item is taking too long, maybe it needs more community discussion.
2013-06-29 17:14:45
cradek
jepler: I agree
2013-06-29 17:14:47
jepler
i.e., to be postponed until the next meeting
2013-06-29 17:14:49
PetefromTn
just keep it concise without undue chatter..
2013-06-29 17:14:58
seb_kuzminsky
i'd rather keep #linuxcnc-meet discussions short - if it needs to be talked about for much more than 15 minutes let's take it out of the meeting and try to propose it again the next time
2013-06-29 17:14:58
cdsteinkuehler
IIRC the general idea was to make this a decision forum and not where the discussion happens
2013-06-29 17:15:05
archivist
the bot could help/hinder with time limits :)
2013-06-29 17:15:15
cmorley
up to moderator I think - with the idea to keep it reasonable
2013-06-29 17:15:44
seb_kuzminsky
i think 15 or 20 minutes seems like a reasonable limit to try for starters
2013-06-29 17:15:44
cradek
the full proposal was this: I propose that we limit formal discussion of each topic to at most 15 minutes, and if at the end of that time we don't have suitable agreement, the topic be revisited at the next meeting with the expectation that a month's informal discussion will help. As soon as there does seem to be suitable agreement, we should proceed to a vote.
2013-06-29 17:15:56
ssi
oh of each topic... that's reasonable
2013-06-29 17:16:00
seb_kuzminsky
i approve of this proposal
2013-06-29 17:16:02
mshaver1
I agree with this
2013-06-29 17:16:06
micges
me too
2013-06-29 17:16:10
steve_stallings
yes
2013-06-29 17:16:11
cradek
anyone disagree?
2013-06-29 17:16:19
tjtr33
seb_kuzminsky, yes, is ther some magic parlimentary word for 'lets take it back outside for discussion and move on' ?
2013-06-29 17:16:23
mhaberler
agree
2013-06-29 17:16:29
ssi
"tabled"?
2013-06-29 17:16:30
cdsteinkuehler
Agree
2013-06-29 17:16:34
PetefromTn
agree with 15 minutes each proposal if that is how I read it correctly.
2013-06-29 17:16:35
cradek
ok, let's vote
2013-06-29 17:16:35
ssi
yes
2013-06-29 17:16:36
cradek
I vote yes
2013-06-29 17:16:37
seb_kuzminsky
yes
2013-06-29 17:16:38
cdsteinkuehler
Yes
2013-06-29 17:16:39
andypugh
yes
2013-06-29 17:16:39
micges
yes
2013-06-29 17:16:40
mshaver1
yes
2013-06-29 17:16:40
mhaberler
"directed to working group"
2013-06-29 17:16:40
DaveCVI
abstain
2013-06-29 17:16:40
viesturs
yes
2013-06-29 17:16:40
archivist
yes
2013-06-29 17:16:42
ArcEye
yes
2013-06-29 17:16:43
tjtr33
agreed
2013-06-29 17:16:43
zultron
I like it.
2013-06-29 17:16:43
cmorley
yes
2013-06-29 17:16:43
zultron
yes
2013-06-29 17:16:48
Kenneth_Lerman
yes
2013-06-29 17:16:53
jepler
yes
2013-06-29 17:16:55
alex_joni
yes
2013-06-29 17:17:03
seb_kuzminsky
yay, 3 minutes! :-)
2013-06-29 17:17:08
andypugh
Darn! I meant "aye" :-)
2013-06-29 17:17:08
PetefromTn
yes
2013-06-29 17:17:27
alex_joni
andypugh: heh
2013-06-29 17:17:44
Kenneth_Lerman
Agree.
2013-06-29 17:17:47
PetefromTn
makes sense to me..
2013-06-29 17:17:54
ssi
yes, but we ought to define what IS required
2013-06-29 17:17:56
mhaberler
fine
2013-06-29 17:17:56
zultron
Yes!
2013-06-29 17:17:57
cradek
this is touchy though. How do we decide suitable?
2013-06-29 17:17:59
ssi
cause I'm not sure plurality is enough
2013-06-29 17:18:12
seb_kuzminsky
should there be some threshold of how un-unanimous an issue needs to be before re say we can't decide?
2013-06-29 17:18:15
PetefromTn
more than 3/4?
2013-06-29 17:18:17
mshaver1
First it depends if the decision is "yes" or "no" vs multichoices.
2013-06-29 17:18:18
cradek
I'm positive 51% is not enough, especially since we're vulnerable to vote stuffing
2013-06-29 17:18:25
jepler
this sounds similar to "policy governance": a single "no" vote is enough to stop a motion, but you vote "no" (vs abstain) only in the case of really strong feelings.
2013-06-29 17:18:31
archivist
no means implement it yerself
2013-06-29 17:18:33
ArcEye
needs agreement from those expected to implement i should think
2013-06-29 17:18:41
cradek
mshaver1: following #1, a proposal should always be yes/no I think
2013-06-29 17:18:54
Kenneth_Lerman
Just post the results. Nothing is cast in stone.
2013-06-29 17:18:54
steve_stallings
greater than 50% but less than 75% = tabled to next meeting, >75% passed?
2013-06-29 17:19:01
Connor
what I miss ?
2013-06-29 17:19:15
seb_kuzminsky
ArcEye: good point, and that ties in with decisions being priorities vs implementation schedules
2013-06-29 17:19:19
PetefromTn
that sounds reasonable.
2013-06-29 17:19:21
mshaver1
In the case of yes/no issues 51% is a majority, but you may want to make a different ratio.
2013-06-29 17:19:49
Tom_itx
zlog
2013-06-29 17:19:49
zlog
Tom_itx: Log stored at http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~tom-itx/irc/logs/%23linuxcnc-meet/2013-06-29.html
2013-06-29 17:19:53
cdsteinkuehler
Interpretation left up to whoever proposed the topic? There are some things I would forge ahead with given 50% agreement, while others I would totally drop.
2013-06-29 17:19:57
PetefromTn
Connor: cradek has changed topic for #linuxcnc-meet to: "DISCUSS: 3: Suitable agreement is ideally unanimous, but unanimous is not required"
2013-06-29 17:20:09
mshaver1
Kenneth_Lerman: You have a point - the results simply are.
2013-06-29 17:20:10
Kenneth_Lerman
Did Alan leave because he thought the wench was a real person?
2013-06-29 17:20:15
DaveCVI
Typical % are 50%, 66% and 75% - I've used 75 in many formal standards- it tends to be subject to minority blocking (Only 25% required to block action)
2013-06-29 17:20:25
zultron
Connor: http://meetlog.archivist.info/
2013-06-29 17:20:27
tjtr33
steve_stallings, i like that, relates to clearly wanted, to not so sure its wanted so we discuss it more
2013-06-29 17:20:41
cradek
unfortunately with irc voting, the only proportion we can be sure about is 100%
2013-06-29 17:20:58
cradek
"nobody is voting no" is the only thing we can measure with certainty
2013-06-29 17:21:12
DaveCVI
I assume % is of votes cast, not # of people watching
2013-06-29 17:21:15
ssi
I think it depends on the proposal
2013-06-29 17:21:31
ssi
if it's a vote on a direction that we take the project as a whole, then we need a "proceed" decision
2013-06-29 17:21:34
alex_joni
DaveCVI: that easily gets out of hands
2013-06-29 17:21:35
cradek
that makes me want to require unanimity, but that leaves us vulnerable to a single troublemaker
2013-06-29 17:21:37
ssi
in that case there should be a formal threshold
2013-06-29 17:21:37
mhaberler
still I'd be concerned about blocking - 100% isnt realistic
2013-06-29 17:21:38
PetefromTn
why does it have to be unanimous?
2013-06-29 17:21:41
mshaver1
mshaver1 is thinking about what cradek said
2013-06-29 17:21:45
zultron
Our community is small enough (so far) that we know who is who, though. We should address ballet box stuffing when it's percieved to be a real issue.
2013-06-29 17:21:52
tjtr33
tik tik tik, this may need to be 'tabled'
2013-06-29 17:21:53
ssi
but I'm not sure all votes will require a formal threshold
2013-06-29 17:21:53
mhaberler
no, I suggest 75% max
2013-06-29 17:22:04
alex_joni
I also tend towards 75%
2013-06-29 17:22:09
Tom_itx
http://www.rulesonline.com/rror-08.htm
2013-06-29 17:22:16
Tom_itx
why not adopt robert's rules of order?
2013-06-29 17:22:19
seb_kuzminsky
the proposal is vague, i think we should table it and discuss offline what to do if we don't reach a unanimous call
2013-06-29 17:22:25
mhaberler
we can use 75% for now and revisit the question in say 3 months
2013-06-29 17:22:25
Connor
2/3rds is normal isn't it ?
2013-06-29 17:22:32
Tom_itx
it's all spelled out that way
2013-06-29 17:22:33
jepler
Tom_itx: personally I have no familiarty with what's in rror
2013-06-29 17:22:36
DaveCVI
I looking at votes mostly as "level of support" - no implementation effort, vote is rather moot
2013-06-29 17:22:42
mshaver1
75% seems at least the minimum I guess, if I had to put a number on it
2013-06-29 17:22:48
zultron
Table it.
2013-06-29 17:22:48
ssi
DaveCVI: yes, for implementation proposals
2013-06-29 17:22:52
Tom_itx
jepler i posted a link to it
2013-06-29 17:22:53
PetefromTn
I like 75%
2013-06-29 17:22:58
jepler
Tom_itx: i can't read it in the next 7 minutes
2013-06-29 17:22:59
andypugh
2/3 isn't representable in binary.
2013-06-29 17:23:02
ssi
but for instance, for these meta-items, we need a proceed vote
2013-06-29 17:23:03
tjtr33
table it
2013-06-29 17:23:11
viesturs
agree with mhaberler - take 75% treshold and revisit at particular time
2013-06-29 17:23:16
Tom_itx
you won't decide on a majority vote in the next 7 min either
2013-06-29 17:23:17
cradek
ok, I'm not ready to vote on #3, and I see others aren't
2013-06-29 17:23:19
cradek
let's move on
2013-06-29 17:23:19
tjtr33
AND discuss it before next meeting
2013-06-29 17:23:25
cdsteinkuehler
I like open interpretation. If someone is voting no, it depends on who and why. What matters is the general consensus in the view of the developers doing the work.
2013-06-29 17:23:29
jepler
75% or unanimous would both get my yes vote
2013-06-29 17:23:34
ssi
I agree with charles
2013-06-29 17:23:43
tjtr33
i move to table it
2013-06-29 17:23:54
Kenneth_Lerman
Record all votes WITH who voted how.
2013-06-29 17:23:54
archivist
hmm means the bot should be counting users in here at the time of the vote
2013-06-29 17:23:58
jepler
ingrid's experience with policy governance is that it works well once people get used to it (you abstain / stand aside when it's clear you're in the minority)
2013-06-29 17:23:58
DaveCVI
A common thing is to insist aht "no votes" include why not - that at least gathers info about differnet opinions
2013-06-29 17:24:05
cradek
cdsteinkuehler: I think I am also ok with it being fuzzy
2013-06-29 17:24:08
alex_joni
I agree on discussing it further (on the mailing list)
2013-06-29 17:24:12
archivist
Kenneth_Lerman, done as it is logged
2013-06-29 17:24:13
cmorley
I agree with the motion - details need to be discussed
2013-06-29 17:24:13
cradek
DaveCVI: also a good idea
2013-06-29 17:24:14
ssi
archivist: I think the only thing that should count are counted votes... not abstention
2013-06-29 17:24:30
ssi
four yeas and a nay is an 80% pass regardless of who's in the room
2013-06-29 17:24:43
cradek
this is a silly one
2013-06-29 17:24:45
jepler
DaveCVI: a no vote generally means status quo, and I don't think that needs defense
2013-06-29 17:24:49
mshaver1
At least we can make decisions on items where there is no dissent...
2013-06-29 17:24:52
cradek
I note it's working
2013-06-29 17:24:53
jepler
oh wait we're on to the next topic
2013-06-29 17:24:59
jepler
cradek: I like what you've been doing with the topic
2013-06-29 17:25:02
ssi
cradek: I think what you're doing is working
2013-06-29 17:25:07
seb_kuzminsky
i like it too, let's keep doing it
2013-06-29 17:25:15
cradek
ok do we need a vote or should we just move on?
2013-06-29 17:25:21
cmorley
move on
2013-06-29 17:25:24
DaveCVI
Jepler: true - but depends on how proposal is worded - I was being general
2013-06-29 17:25:25
seb_kuzminsky
vote
2013-06-29 17:25:26
ssi
you want to vote on whether to vote?
2013-06-29 17:25:26
Kenneth_Lerman
Is there any dissent?
2013-06-29 17:25:31
PetefromTn
Don;t understand this one...
2013-06-29 17:25:33
alex_joni
well
2013-06-29 17:25:41
alex_joni
not quite
2013-06-29 17:25:43
ssi
PetefromTn: using the topic to mark what "phase" the meeting is in
2013-06-29 17:25:54
seb_kuzminsky
PetefromTn: cradek's been updating the irc channel topic to describe what we're supposed to be doing
2013-06-29 17:25:55
jepler
> I propose that during the meeting, we use the channel topic to describe the state of the meeting, something like "PROPOSAL: [summary] [proposer]" and "VOTE: [summary]" [cradek]
2013-06-29 17:25:58
mshaver1
The previous topic: Vote, skip, ?
2013-06-29 17:25:59
cradek
PetefromTn: you can probably see it in your titlebar or somewhere like that
2013-06-29 17:26:00
PetefromTn
you mean the colored topics chris is posting.
2013-06-29 17:26:02
alex_joni
we need to discuss who has OP in #linuxcnc-meet
2013-06-29 17:26:03
ssi
yep
2013-06-29 17:26:13
alex_joni
if cradek is not around
2013-06-29 17:26:20
Tom_itx
the idea is to use the 'TOPIC' to stay on topic. i like the idea
2013-06-29 17:26:24
ssi
the facilitator should have op and be in charge of the topics
2013-06-29 17:26:31
alex_joni
or is the /topic open in here?
2013-06-29 17:26:38
Tom_itx
appears cradek has taken the job
2013-06-29 17:26:49
archivist
some person put topic protection on
2013-06-29 17:26:54
PetefromTn
I like it , so far it has kept things on track and I am new to this..
2013-06-29 17:26:55
Tom_itx
no objection here
2013-06-29 17:27:11
seb_kuzminsky
let's vote on this and move on?
2013-06-29 17:27:14
cradek
yes
2013-06-29 17:27:14
alex_joni
I agree with the use of topic
2013-06-29 17:27:15
jepler
yes
2013-06-29 17:27:17
cdsteinkuehler
Yes
2013-06-29 17:27:18
Connor
yes
2013-06-29 17:27:19
Kenneth_Lerman
yes
2013-06-29 17:27:19
ssi
yes
2013-06-29 17:27:19
seb_kuzminsky
i vote yes
2013-06-29 17:27:19
zultron
Aye
2013-06-29 17:27:19
Tom_itx
seb_kuzminsky i vote yes
2013-06-29 17:27:20
PetefromTn
ys
2013-06-29 17:27:22
cmorley
yes
2013-06-29 17:27:22
archivist
yes
2013-06-29 17:27:23
PetefromTn
yes
2013-06-29 17:27:23
alex_joni
yes
2013-06-29 17:27:24
micges
yes
2013-06-29 17:27:25
Tom_itx
si
2013-06-29 17:27:25
mhaberler
yes
2013-06-29 17:27:27
mshaver1
yes
2013-06-29 17:27:29
Tom_itx
ja
2013-06-29 17:27:29
viesturs
yes
2013-06-29 17:27:30
ArcEye
yes
2013-06-29 17:27:48
Tom_itx
next topic?
2013-06-29 17:27:59
tjtr33
damn i cant see the topic being voted on in xchat, i refrain whatever the magic word si
2013-06-29 17:28:00
cradek
mhaberler: please introduce
2013-06-29 17:28:13
seb_kuzminsky
mhaberler: does cradek
2013-06-29 17:28:19
Tom_itx
cradek that is fairly well spelled out in the freenode website
2013-06-29 17:28:20
seb_kuzminsky
's topic updates satisfy your proposal?
2013-06-29 17:28:31
PetefromTn
also don't understand this one sorry..
2013-06-29 17:28:33
mhaberler
well I thought it would be useful to do a summary what was decided, and postponed at the end
2013-06-29 17:28:36
mhaberler
thats it
2013-06-29 17:28:50
Connor
In Channel ? Or on Forum ?
2013-06-29 17:28:53
alex_joni
and post it to some other channels
2013-06-29 17:28:54
cradek
mhaberler: should we put it at the bottom of the Meeting201306 page?
2013-06-29 17:28:54
mhaberler
just to keep thinks on track
2013-06-29 17:29:01
seb_kuzminsky
do you mean the moderator should announce PASS/FAIL/TABLED at the end of the vote
2013-06-29 17:29:01
mhaberler
I think so
2013-06-29 17:29:08
zultron
All channels should have a link to the wiki page.
2013-06-29 17:29:11
archivist
mhaberler, can trawl the logs too for history
2013-06-29 17:29:13
mhaberler
but if the scribe does it, fine too
2013-06-29 17:29:34
mshaver1
I like the bottom of the Meetingyyydd page idea.
2013-06-29 17:29:38
cradek
I see 5/6 are related
2013-06-29 17:29:39
DaveCVI
A post mtg sumary would be nice - much easier to read than the raw irc log for folks not in the meeting
2013-06-29 17:29:40
zultron
Yes.
2013-06-29 17:29:42
mhaberler
yes
2013-06-29 17:29:48
archivist
is the topic is in a nice format the history will be nice too
2013-06-29 17:29:54
alex_joni
noting on the wiki page shounds good
2013-06-29 17:30:01
mhaberler
The whole point of #6 is to prevent things from getting forgotten
2013-06-29 17:30:08
cradek
I like the wiki page idea
2013-06-29 17:30:12
seb_kuzminsky
so the proposal is: "the moderator or a secretary should update the meeting wiki page with the decisions we made"?
2013-06-29 17:30:15
cradek
we could put a summary, with a link to the full log?
2013-06-29 17:30:15
jepler
tjtr33: in this screenshot of xchat, the topic is the text near the top center, "fedoraproject.org etc etc"
2013-06-29 17:30:23
ssi
having a summary would be very useful... having to go to the logs to figure out what the decisions were would be inconvenient
2013-06-29 17:30:25
jepler
I don't know if your xchat is the same or not
2013-06-29 17:30:27
Connor
scribe = secretary.
2013-06-29 17:30:28
mhaberler
yes, that be great
2013-06-29 17:30:36
PetefromTn
so we are saying that the moderator tasks is to button up the notes and results of the votes and store them somewhere safe and easily accesible.
2013-06-29 17:30:38
seb_kuzminsky
i approve of this proposal
2013-06-29 17:30:40
cradek
ok I'd also like that
2013-06-29 17:30:43
mhaberler
right, the summary is scribe's responsibility
2013-06-29 17:30:50
mhaberler
(who's that today?)
2013-06-29 17:30:53
jepler
should the wiki page for the monthly meeting be updated by the secretary with the results?
2013-06-29 17:30:54
ssi
is it going to be one nominated person, or change?
2013-06-29 17:30:59
alex_joni
could we have empty spots for scribe and moderator on the wiki page, and have people volunteer on them before the meet
2013-06-29 17:31:04
seb_kuzminsky
i volunteer to be secratary today, i've been taking good notes
2013-06-29 17:31:04
jepler
rather than a separate page or an e-mail or a forum post
2013-06-29 17:31:12
alex_joni
so that it's fixed who will be performing the tasks
2013-06-29 17:31:21
mhaberler
scribe and moderator shall be determined at beginning of meeting
2013-06-29 17:31:30
alex_joni
mhaberler: I would like before
2013-06-29 17:31:33
alex_joni
in discussions
2013-06-29 17:31:34
ssi
volunteering on the wiki is a good idea
2013-06-29 17:31:37
alex_joni
just like proposals
2013-06-29 17:31:46
seb_kuzminsky
i'll send out an email to both mailing lists with the agenda items and the decisions we made (if we agree i'm the person to do it)
2013-06-29 17:31:46
PetefromTn
ssi: agreed
2013-06-29 17:31:49
ssi
if noone has volunteered at meeting start, then they should be determined at the meeting
2013-06-29 17:31:49
mhaberler
'no later than' is more realistiv
2013-06-29 17:32:04
cradek
oops was that premature?
2013-06-29 17:32:07
ssi
a bit :)
2013-06-29 17:32:13
jepler
cradek: yes we are still discussing
2013-06-29 17:32:20
seb_kuzminsky
i'm ready to vote yes :-)
2013-06-29 17:32:24
cradek
new at this
2013-06-29 17:32:25
Kenneth_Lerman
if multiple volunteers, we vote on it.
2013-06-29 17:32:32
zultron
Add, "wiki page link will be announced on irc channels, mailing lists and forums".
2013-06-29 17:32:36
seb_kuzminsky
or let the volunteers enter the thunderdome
2013-06-29 17:32:44
mhaberler
having been in student politics helps ;)
2013-06-29 17:33:02
mshaver1
So today, Seb and cradek are scribe & moderator today right?
2013-06-29 17:33:05
PetefromTn
I'm no politician..LOL
2013-06-29 17:33:08
mhaberler
right
2013-06-29 17:33:09
alex_joni
mshaver1: right
2013-06-29 17:33:15
seb_kuzminsky
cradek's moderator, i'm secretary
2013-06-29 17:33:25
PetefromTn
I like it
2013-06-29 17:33:30
andypugh
Student politics mainly taught me procedural dirty tricks
2013-06-29 17:33:39
mshaver1
And we'll try to have them lined up in advance next time?
2013-06-29 17:33:40
cmorley
ok lets vote
2013-06-29 17:33:42
mhaberler
what else is new ;-?
2013-06-29 17:33:48
cradek
let's let the secretary do the summary and see whether we like it, and yell at him if not
2013-06-29 17:33:53
seb_kuzminsky
yes
2013-06-29 17:33:54
Connor
I make a motion to move to vote. :)
2013-06-29 17:33:57
mshaver1
yes
2013-06-29 17:34:01
cradek
yes
2013-06-29 17:34:02
zultron
I'd like to add this: <zultron> Add, "wiki page link will be announced on irc channels, mailing lists and forums".
2013-06-29 17:34:02
seb_kuzminsky
i vote yes
2013-06-29 17:34:02
tjtr33
synced up now, i'd vote yes
2013-06-29 17:34:03
Kenneth_Lerman
yes
2013-06-29 17:34:05
mshaver1
yes
2013-06-29 17:34:06
mhaberler
yes
2013-06-29 17:34:06
ssi
yes
2013-06-29 17:34:07
Connor
yes
2013-06-29 17:34:08
jepler
yes
2013-06-29 17:34:08
micges
yes
2013-06-29 17:34:08
cdsteinkuehler
Yes
2013-06-29 17:34:09
PetefromTn
yes
2013-06-29 17:34:10
DaveCVI
yes
2013-06-29 17:34:12
cmorley
yes
2013-06-29 17:34:12
viesturs
yes
2013-06-29 17:34:13
zultron
Ok next meeting. :)
2013-06-29 17:34:14
zultron
yes
2013-06-29 17:34:15
alex_joni
yes
2013-06-29 17:34:29
PetefromTn
this is fun..LOL
2013-06-29 17:34:48
alex_joni
same time/date sounds ok
2013-06-29 17:34:49
jepler
this works for me
2013-06-29 17:34:50
seb_kuzminsky
this time works well for me, let's formalize repeating it until we change it
2013-06-29 17:34:57
Kenneth_Lerman
This time works for me. Last Sat of month.
2013-06-29 17:34:58
Connor
Not at 9am on a Saturday...
2013-06-29 17:35:00
ssi
same bat-time, same bat-channel?
2013-06-29 17:35:02
cradek
the only thing I note with this one is some of my other engagements are scheduled as "Nth [week]day of the month" so perhaps "4th" would be better than "last"
2013-06-29 17:35:06
mshaver1
I'm OK with this time.
2013-06-29 17:35:10
mhaberler
fine
2013-06-29 17:35:14
archivist
last saturday in a month suits me as first weekend is steaming for me
2013-06-29 17:35:35
alex_joni
either last sat or 4th sat is fine by me
2013-06-29 17:35:38
cradek
does anyone care whether it's "4th" or "last"
2013-06-29 17:35:42
jepler
I prefer 4th
2013-06-29 17:35:45
PetefromTn
last saturday is fine with me too but the time is difficult for some I am sure we are apparently global.
2013-06-29 17:35:46
Connor
how often? Every month? every 3 months ?
2013-06-29 17:35:47
jepler
I think it's easier to say that to scheduling software
2013-06-29 17:35:48
zultron
This is a bad question to decide here. Folks that can't make it won't get to vote. :(
2013-06-29 17:35:48
archivist
no, flip a coin
2013-06-29 17:35:57
cradek
zultron: hmmm
2013-06-29 17:36:15
seb_kuzminsky
Connor: i like monthly
2013-06-29 17:36:18
alex_joni
Connor: every month
2013-06-29 17:36:18
cradek
then maybe we should skip it for now?
2013-06-29 17:36:24
Kenneth_Lerman
Monthly.
2013-06-29 17:36:26
zultron
I'd like to vote on a tentative time, but leave room open for discussion later on MLs, etc.
2013-06-29 17:36:26
Connor
Move to take this to the mailing list.
2013-06-29 17:36:27
cradek
(I think monthly is right)
2013-06-29 17:36:29
alex_joni
if we see too little proposals, we can rediscuss
2013-06-29 17:36:31
jepler
shall we agree the time of the *next* meeting today?
2013-06-29 17:36:46
DaveCVI
I prefer 4th, hlps people find mtg easier if it is a regular schedule
2013-06-29 17:36:47
seb_kuzminsky
jepler: good idea
2013-06-29 17:36:49
archivist
postal votes to /dev/null
2013-06-29 17:36:50
Kenneth_Lerman
Yes, same time, same place.
2013-06-29 17:36:50
jepler
table this, agree to next meeting time as the 4th saturday blah blah instead?
2013-06-29 17:37:00
cradek
that's fine with me
2013-06-29 17:37:01
mhaberler
well fine, but maybe we could provide a schedule say for a year ahead to avoid confusions
2013-06-29 17:37:02
mshaver1
jepler: agreed
2013-06-29 17:37:27
Connor
I think posting it on the mailing list/forum a few days in advance would be needed
2013-06-29 17:37:33
tjtr33
i go for a one time agreement on 'next' being in 1 month
2013-06-29 17:37:33
alex_joni
mhaberler: we will have 2013xx wiki pages for the rest of the year
2013-06-29 17:37:39
alex_joni
each wiill have the date/time stated
2013-06-29 17:37:53
cradek
yes
2013-06-29 17:37:55
mshaver1
yes
2013-06-29 17:37:55
zultron
Aye
2013-06-29 17:37:58
DaveCVI
yes
2013-06-29 17:37:58
ssi
so we can go ahead and propose a topic for november's meeting about who will take the christmas card picture?!
2013-06-29 17:37:58
andypugh
aye
2013-06-29 17:37:59
tjtr33
yes
2013-06-29 17:38:00
seb_kuzminsky
i vote yes
2013-06-29 17:38:00
cdsteinkuehler
Yes
2013-06-29 17:38:00
Kenneth_Lerman
yes
2013-06-29 17:38:01
PetefromTn
monthly with the next meeting posting in several spots
2013-06-29 17:38:02
ssi
yes
2013-06-29 17:38:02
micges
yes
2013-06-29 17:38:04
alex_joni
aye
2013-06-29 17:38:04
cmorley
yes
2013-06-29 17:38:06
mhaberler
a schedule is about finding the next date, urI's dont give you that
2013-06-29 17:38:07
viesturs
what is UTC?
2013-06-29 17:38:11
Connor
yes
2013-06-29 17:38:11
ssi
GMT
2013-06-29 17:38:12
mhaberler
greenwhich
2013-06-29 17:38:14
alex_joni
viesturs: GMT
2013-06-29 17:38:15
PetefromTn
yes
2013-06-29 17:38:19
viesturs
then I vote "yes"
2013-06-29 17:38:30
andypugh
It's GMT with a French name...
2013-06-29 17:38:41
zultron
That's the 27th.
2013-06-29 17:38:45
ssi
the french couldn't let the english own time
2013-06-29 17:38:55
PetefromTn
yeah never heard of UTC...
2013-06-29 17:39:00
alex_joni
BST != GMT
2013-06-29 17:39:02
Kenneth_Lerman
They never met Dr. Who.
2013-06-29 17:39:09
mhaberler
the Internet operates on UTC
2013-06-29 17:39:13
seb_kuzminsky
i vote yes ;-)
2013-06-29 17:39:16
alex_joni
I'd say we go to vote on #8
2013-06-29 17:39:19
ssi
dr who isn't english :)
2013-06-29 17:39:22
alex_joni
alex_joni votes yes
2013-06-29 17:39:26
cradek
I think seb will be a great replacement for me
2013-06-29 17:39:29
ssi
I say if seb wants it, seb can have it :)
2013-06-29 17:39:30
archivist
yes
2013-06-29 17:39:31
jepler
cradek: not in all ways
2013-06-29 17:39:32
viesturs
yes
2013-06-29 17:39:40
Connor
cradek: Where you going? :)
2013-06-29 17:39:48
cradek
jepler: of course I'm better looking, but that's not important
2013-06-29 17:39:53
Connor
or do you just need a break ?
2013-06-29 17:39:59
steve_stallings
yes, but there will never be a replacement for cradek 8-)
2013-06-29 17:40:03
PetefromTn
yeah ya leaving?
2013-06-29 17:40:04
seb_kuzminsky
i hope cradek and jepler will act as mentors for me when i get lost & confused
2013-06-29 17:40:05
mshaver1
ssi: My feelings exactly
2013-06-29 17:40:08
cradek
Connor: it's been our custom to have different people do different major releases
2013-06-29 17:40:16
mhaberler
can we spell out the release managers role a bit here ?
2013-06-29 17:40:16
Kenneth_Lerman
the_wench thinks it'simportant
2013-06-29 17:40:30
jepler
mhaberler: decides what goes in the release branch, when releases are made, makes them.
2013-06-29 17:40:44
seb_kuzminsky
mhaberler: i tried to outline what i thought RM responsibilities were and how i would do them on the mailing list
2013-06-29 17:40:49
mhaberler
item #1 is subject to discussion
2013-06-29 17:40:54
cmorley
Seb spelled out in maillist how he saw it to be done
2013-06-29 17:40:54
PetefromTn
I guess, sure if seb wants the responsibility, its his.
2013-06-29 17:40:56
Kenneth_Lerman
And gets nagged by people who want particular things.
2013-06-29 17:40:58
cradek
I agree with jepler's summary
2013-06-29 17:41:07
cradek
mhaberler: I don't understand
2013-06-29 17:41:18
cradek
mhaberler: can you elaborate
2013-06-29 17:41:19
jepler
I think community's voice in what goes in the stable branch is weaker, and the RM's voice is stronger
2013-06-29 17:41:22
tjtr33
are we done voting and onto a new topic ( release mgr ) ? the delineation was awful
2013-06-29 17:41:34
jepler
approximately: RM says what goes in the release branch, community says what goes in master branch
2013-06-29 17:41:35
mhaberler
'decides what goes in the release branch'
2013-06-29 17:41:41
seb_kuzminsky
tjtr33: cradek changed the topic, that's the delineation
2013-06-29 17:41:53
mhaberler
that was what I suggest to be not a single person's discretion
2013-06-29 17:41:54
seb_kuzminsky
mhaberler: that's the principal job of the rm
2013-06-29 17:42:03
jepler
that's absolutely the job of the rm
2013-06-29 17:42:03
tjtr33
argh caught again
2013-06-29 17:42:07
PetefromTn
sorry I don't understand the release branch and the master branch..
2013-06-29 17:42:16
cradek
mhaberler: I disagree, it's absolutely the RM's job
2013-06-29 17:42:29
mhaberler
sorry, we need to be a bit more concrete here
2013-06-29 17:42:30
cradek
of course the RM oughta listen to what's going on around him
2013-06-29 17:42:40
Connor
PetefromTn: Code talk. For the different versions of the LinuxCNC code.
2013-06-29 17:42:46
mhaberler
as a general direction of a release this needs to be a community decision
2013-06-29 17:42:48
seb_kuzminsky
of course i would take input from the devs that want to put stuff in the release branch, but i would reject things i thought would destabilize it or break interfaces or configs etc
2013-06-29 17:42:56
cmorley
but if you feel strongly about something you could discuss it here to hopefully sway the RM
2013-06-29 17:43:01
zultron
The RM needs to be accountable to the wider community, though.
2013-06-29 17:43:10
mhaberler
as for concrete parts going in/left out that is fine being RM's call
2013-06-29 17:43:18
micges
I think bugfix releases should be once per month or two
2013-06-29 17:43:19
Connor
PetefromTn: Master Branch is were all the work goes on.. Release branch is a "snapshot" of Master branch once the say it's stable enough for public
2013-06-29 17:43:22
cradek
I would like to note that this has NEVER been a problem
2013-06-29 17:43:38
Kenneth_Lerman
The wider community includes those affected by broken stuff and those who need new features.
2013-06-29 17:43:45
PetefromTn
Connor: Thanks dude..
2013-06-29 17:43:48
jepler
if RM is doing a bad job, the community can boot him out
2013-06-29 17:43:48
mhaberler
well that is a consequence of the group size you had so far
2013-06-29 17:43:58
mhaberler
that doesnt automatically extend
2013-06-29 17:44:11
seb_kuzminsky
mhaberler: how do you think it should be done?
2013-06-29 17:44:25
alex_joni
I say community can decide what goes in a release, before the branch and RM
2013-06-29 17:44:26
ssi
it might be worth opening a discussion for a future vote about how we do branching and code management in general
2013-06-29 17:44:36
alex_joni
afterwards the RM has the ultimate saying about stability
2013-06-29 17:44:52
mshaver1
I guess the RM is really in charge of labelling things "satble", "testing", "unstable(sid)", etc right?
2013-06-29 17:44:53
mhaberler
example: I dont know what the next release should be - master frozen and packaged, or unified build or whatnot
2013-06-29 17:45:01
Kenneth_Lerman
Well, we could vote on what gets included. And, of course, anyone can make his own branch to compete with the formal release.
2013-06-29 17:45:03
mhaberler
that I want to be a community decision
2013-06-29 17:45:08
cradek
the community has ABSOLUTELY no idea what will destabilize a release. they will not say no to a new feature they want, even when it would be a terrible idea
2013-06-29 17:45:09
mhaberler
I am not talking commit level
2013-06-29 17:45:25
steve_stallings
can someone summerize the principal branches? I thought we had an "experimental" and likely to get broken, a "compiles but not fully tested" and a "release" golden branch
2013-06-29 17:45:38
jepler
steve_stallings: we have "master" and "v2.x_branch" and a bunch of others
2013-06-29 17:45:42
seb_kuzminsky
mhaberler: i tried to describe that level of thing in my email, do you think my proposal there would satisfy what you want?
2013-06-29 17:45:45
jepler
steve_stallings: "v2.x_branch" is what we're concerned with at the moment
2013-06-29 17:45:47
cradek
oh you mean where and when the branch itself will be made?
2013-06-29 17:45:50
mhaberler
let me see
2013-06-29 17:45:57
jepler
i.e., does RM have a commit-by-commit and absolute say in what goes in v2.x_branch
2013-06-29 17:46:03
jepler
so far the answer has been "yes"
2013-06-29 17:46:05
tjtr33
alex_joni, sounds good, allows community to discuss content
2013-06-29 17:46:18
zultron
Erm, I'm a bit behind on the list, need to go dredge that one up....
2013-06-29 17:46:22
jepler
it's a very technical and boring and sucky job, because it means saying "no"
2013-06-29 17:46:25
alex_joni
I think we should allow discussions/votes before the release gets branched
2013-06-29 17:46:33
mhaberler
seb, cradek: disregard, sebs paragraph 1 covers my concerns
2013-06-29 17:46:33
alex_joni
what we should include, etc
2013-06-29 17:46:35
mhaberler
go ahead
2013-06-29 17:46:37
alex_joni
and vote on that
2013-06-29 17:46:51
cradek
ok great
2013-06-29 17:46:53
alex_joni
but once it's branched, the RM gets to say what goes in and what not
2013-06-29 17:46:57
seb_kuzminsky
yay!
2013-06-29 17:47:02
seb_kuzminsky
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.devel/10230
2013-06-29 17:47:04
cradek
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:06
jepler
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:07
mhaberler
that is fine
2013-06-29 17:47:08
alex_joni
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:08
tjtr33
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:10
archivist
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:10
micges
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:11
Kenneth_Lerman
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:11
Connor
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:13
ssi
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:13
cdsteinkuehler
Yes
2013-06-29 17:47:13
cmorley
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:16
steve_stallings
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:19
PetefromTn
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:20
CaptHindsight
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:22
DaveCVI
There appear to be two topics being discussed: 1) Seb a RM? and 2) what goes into a release. RM clearly has say about 2, and the job evolves as time passes
2013-06-29 17:47:29
mshaver1
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:29
DaveCVI
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:30
capricorn_one
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:32
seb_kuzminsky
i vote yes
2013-06-29 17:47:33
andypugh
Aye
2013-06-29 17:47:34
mhaberler
man, thats a decision machine like the supreme soviet
2013-06-29 17:47:36
ArcEye
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:40
zultron
Sorry fellas, abstain here, not sure what I'm voting for.
2013-06-29 17:47:41
viesturs
yes
2013-06-29 17:47:54
alex_joni
zultron: specifically the 2.6 release
2013-06-29 17:48:11
zultron
It's ok, let's move on.
2013-06-29 17:48:19
mhaberler
I had the impression it was 'Seb for RM' by acclamation
2013-06-29 17:48:25
cradek
zultron: IMO the vote is about what's in the topic - the questions about what the RM's job will be were withdrawn
2013-06-29 17:48:36
ssi
that's a much wider topic
2013-06-29 17:48:39
zultron
Then I change my vote to 'aye'.
2013-06-29 17:48:43
seb_kuzminsky
heh
2013-06-29 17:48:44
zultron
Thanks!
2013-06-29 17:48:45
steve_stallings
reset and restate vote question please
2013-06-29 17:48:57
ssi
we should narrow that down to some specific proposals, discuss them offline, and vote in the future
2013-06-29 17:48:59
cmorley
I think the switch to vote was a little quick this time
2013-06-29 17:49:09
mhaberler
amen
2013-06-29 17:49:09
mshaver1
yea, redo that one
2013-06-29 17:49:10
cradek
should we back up?
2013-06-29 17:49:16
mshaver1
back up
2013-06-29 17:49:17
PetefromTn
agreed.... its muddy in here
2013-06-29 17:49:22
mhaberler
summarize the question once more
2013-06-29 17:49:45
seb_kuzminsky
here's my understanding of what an RM should do: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.devel/10230
2013-06-29 17:49:45
archivist
done that ...yes
2013-06-29 17:49:49
ssi
as I understand it, this vote is merely to decide whether it should be seb or not
2013-06-29 17:49:53
cmorley
is there any other discussion and is everyone clear what we are voting for?
2013-06-29 17:49:55
ssi
not what the tasks should be
2013-06-29 17:49:58
DaveCVI
I'd like to see release periods different for features vs bug fixes - I"ll write up some thoughts and offer via email for discusison (post this mtg)
2013-06-29 17:50:04
mshaver1
anyone else want this job?
2013-06-29 17:50:08
cradek
let's vote on whether seb takes on the release manager job, with the intent that he acts according to the things he's spelled out on the list
2013-06-29 17:50:15
alex_joni
DaveCVI: not up for talk right now
2013-06-29 17:50:15
PetefromTn
ssi: thats what I thought too..
2013-06-29 17:50:25
mhaberler
that is a role vote, not a release content vote
2013-06-29 17:50:29
cradek
mshaver1: surely no :-)
2013-06-29 17:50:34
cmorley
yes the vot eis Seb for release manager
2013-06-29 17:50:44
mshaver1
that's what I thought...
2013-06-29 17:50:45
zultron
If the release is not going to happen before next meeting, my worries disappear.
2013-06-29 17:50:47
seb_kuzminsky
i guess it's hard to tell whether to vote for who should be RM, if we don't know what the RM should do
2013-06-29 17:50:50
DaveCVI
Alex: sorry, that's why I said I'd do later - my typing is causing a conversation latency ;-(
2013-06-29 17:51:02
alex_joni
DaveCVI: np
2013-06-29 17:51:09
alex_joni
use abbreviations .. it helps :D
2013-06-29 17:51:09
seb_kuzminsky
vote me for RM (and the rm's job is to sit in a hot tub and drink gin & tonic)
2013-06-29 17:51:23
mhaberler
I'll take it
2013-06-29 17:51:25
Kenneth_Lerman
I'll provide the carrots.
2013-06-29 17:51:27
seb_kuzminsky
seb_kuzminsky jokes ^^^^
2013-06-29 17:51:29
alex_joni
we'll change the RM's job at #11
2013-06-29 17:51:29
PetefromTn
Ooh I want that job'
2013-06-29 17:51:29
ssi
so the only real unclear thing about your proposal is how features get selected for the release
2013-06-29 17:51:38
ssi
but that's not really in scope for today
2013-06-29 17:51:48
cmorley
I guess I shoulda put a link to the maillist of your proposed job
2013-06-29 17:51:52
cradek
ssi: I suggest you read his email on the list, which is very specific about his intent
2013-06-29 17:51:54
seb_kuzminsky
ssi: right, that's unclear, and i dont feel competent to write down an exact algorithm for it
2013-06-29 17:52:01
ssi
cradek: that's what I'm commenting on
2013-06-29 17:52:03
seb_kuzminsky
it's largely a judgement call
2013-06-29 17:52:29
mshaver1
seb wants the job & has made his ideas clear
2013-06-29 17:52:30
cradek
nobody's ready to make the v2.6_branch today because some things we want in it are not ready
2013-06-29 17:52:41
seb_kuzminsky
i'll try to merge as many bugfixes as i can, as long as they don't violate stability of the code (and exposed interfaces, including configs)
2013-06-29 17:52:42
cradek
seb will have to work with a lot of folks to pull it off, and I trust him to do it right
2013-06-29 17:53:03
cmorley
I think Seb is the man for the job -but we may like to discuss at another time specifics
2013-06-29 17:53:05
seb_kuzminsky
i see the rm's job as mainly one of tracking bugs and merging work from other devs
2013-06-29 17:53:10
Connor
AFK
2013-06-29 17:53:12
Kenneth_Lerman
It really is about trust. A lot easier after our face-to-face in Wichita.
2013-06-29 17:53:19
cmorley
I have read his proposal and it sounds good
2013-06-29 17:53:25
PetefromTn
Damn I wish I had made it to wichita..
2013-06-29 17:53:32
ssi
PetefromTn: you and me both
2013-06-29 17:53:43
PetefromTn
LOL
2013-06-29 17:53:46
Kenneth_Lerman
30 people giving their time freely. Something to behold.
2013-06-29 17:53:48
cradek
shall we move on and vote him in for the job?
2013-06-29 17:53:53
archivist
yes
2013-06-29 17:53:53
ssi
yes
2013-06-29 17:53:55
zultron
yes
2013-06-29 17:53:55
Kenneth_Lerman
yes
2013-06-29 17:53:56
tjtr33
i vote for seb for RM (met him, trust him, seen some of his work )
2013-06-29 17:53:56
PetefromTn
sure
2013-06-29 17:53:58
cmorley
I think so
2013-06-29 17:53:58
mhaberler
yes
2013-06-29 17:54:00
mshaver1
If you had made it, you wouldn't say that :)
2013-06-29 17:54:01
cdsteinkuehler
Yes
2013-06-29 17:54:01
capricorn_one
yes - Seb for RM
2013-06-29 17:54:03
ssi
yes
2013-06-29 17:54:03
cradek
yes
2013-06-29 17:54:04
steve_stallings
2.6 looks to be a major release and seb has taken seriously the job of balanced consideration of structural changes versus stability, I give him my vote for managing the release
2013-06-29 17:54:05
cmorley
yes
2013-06-29 17:54:06
mshaver1
yes
2013-06-29 17:54:08
archivist
yes
2013-06-29 17:54:09
micges
yes
2013-06-29 17:54:10
Kenneth_Lerman
yes
2013-06-29 17:54:11
alex_joni
yes
2013-06-29 17:54:11
PetefromTn
yes
2013-06-29 17:54:12
DaveCVI
yes
2013-06-29 17:54:12
viesturs
yes
2013-06-29 17:54:20
andypugh
Aye
2013-06-29 17:54:27
seb_kuzminsky
yes, and thanks guys! i'll try to do a good job :-)
2013-06-29 17:54:47
cmorley
I have no doubts
2013-06-29 17:54:48
PetefromTn
You sound like you will seb good luck.
2013-06-29 17:54:53
mshaver1
do it
2013-06-29 17:54:54
cradek
cmorley: want to summarize your thoughts and maybe rephrase it into a proposal?
2013-06-29 17:55:21
zultron
Where's JMK? I heard this idea from him first.
2013-06-29 17:55:30
cmorley
I propose we desolve the board as it seems to not serve the purpose it was intended.
2013-06-29 17:55:33
alex_joni
bah, and lose the seat of power? :(
2013-06-29 17:55:37
seb_kuzminsky
jmk doesnt come around much any more
2013-06-29 17:55:46
alex_joni
<- kidding
2013-06-29 17:55:47
seb_kuzminsky
i approve of this proposal
2013-06-29 17:55:50
mhaberler
formally IMO it doesnt exist anymore; from a sanitary point of view the current board should resolve to stand down; which is a different decision from 'will we have another one'
2013-06-29 17:55:50
cdsteinkuehler
What will we disolve them in?
2013-06-29 17:55:50
tjtr33
what does the board do now? (what do we loose ? no joking/snide stuff meant )
2013-06-29 17:55:52
Kenneth_Lerman
Dissolving the board will make it difficult for anyone to find someone to sue. Who would the next EMC send a letter to.
2013-06-29 17:55:52
cradek
I note jmk and swp are both absent
2013-06-29 17:56:00
cradek
and jepler now
2013-06-29 17:56:10
cradek
Kenneth_Lerman: that is one benefit, yes
2013-06-29 17:56:27
alex_joni
the actual disolving would be done by the board itself
2013-06-29 17:56:28
CaptHindsight
cdsteinkuehler: I think seb said gin and tonic
2013-06-29 17:56:31
alex_joni
with a board vote
2013-06-29 17:56:41
alex_joni
but we can have the community here vote about it
2013-06-29 17:56:42
archivist
Kenneth_Lerman, that thought came to me too :)
2013-06-29 17:56:44
steve_stallings
without a formal organization it is not possible to hold a board responsible, forget the board and continue on this new path of IRC discussion, it seems good so far
2013-06-29 17:56:45
viesturs
the board is the entity for contact by any third party. who is to fill this place, if board is dissolved?
2013-06-29 17:56:47
cmorley
Alex_joni - yes thats fine
2013-06-29 17:56:50
PetefromTn
thats a soak not a dissolve...
2013-06-29 17:56:55
seb_kuzminsky
the board is cruft from before, no longer needed or wanted, the irc meetings is the new way of doing much of what the old board was tasked with doing
2013-06-29 17:56:59
ssi
am I correct in assuming that this democratic process replaces the original function of the board?
2013-06-29 17:57:05
mshaver1
so, how about a vote that the community suggests that they dissolve?
2013-06-29 17:57:10
cradek
ssi: yes IMO that is the intent
2013-06-29 17:57:11
mhaberler
seb: I do not concur _at all_ with your view
2013-06-29 17:57:12
Kenneth_Lerman
Anarchy is good. Let anyone who wants to contact us do it on one of the lists.
2013-06-29 17:57:16
mshaver1
ssi: yes, I think so
2013-06-29 17:57:30
PetefromTn
I like the meeting setup where anyone who really cares to input can do so.
2013-06-29 17:57:33
seb_kuzminsky
Kenneth_Lerman: i agree
2013-06-29 17:57:40
Kenneth_Lerman
The board was the result of the democratic process.
2013-06-29 17:57:54
cmorley
we should find - a point of contact person to replace it maybe
2013-06-29 17:58:10
alex_joni
yes, but our democracy changes (people who are part of the project, etc), and board votes were scarce
2013-06-29 17:58:13
cradek
I think we should wait a month on this. I'd like it if all current board folks were here for the community vote.
2013-06-29 17:58:17
mhaberler
I think it is too early to call, for the following reason:
2013-06-29 17:58:18
mshaver1
Kenneth_Lerman: It was a smaller country back then...
2013-06-29 17:58:24
Kenneth_Lerman
Why would anyone want to be the point of contact (AKA the target.)
2013-06-29 17:58:28
tjtr33
but of no use and has become a liabilty for its memenrs, i vote to dissolve it ( and forget it and deny it ever existed )
2013-06-29 17:58:43
mshaver1
cradek has a point
2013-06-29 17:58:54
cmorley
people outside the comunnity like a person to contact
2013-06-29 17:58:56
seb_kuzminsky
i'm happy to table this and discuss it more before deciding
2013-06-29 17:58:59
mshaver1
we need to talk to those folks
2013-06-29 17:59:02
mhaberler
you guys might think the IRC meeting - which is procedural- fixes a structural problem
2013-06-29 17:59:05
cmorley
yes we should table it
2013-06-29 17:59:14
Kenneth_Lerman
OK. Table it.
2013-06-29 17:59:16
mhaberler
I dont think it will, but it should be revisitied in 3-6 months
2013-06-29 17:59:16
alex_joni
one thing that comes to mind is a contact point for companies
2013-06-29 17:59:20
cradek
as a board member I feel like I only serve as a lightning rod for trouble and complaints. I don't think the formality/secrecy serves any purpose.
2013-06-29 17:59:22
PetefromTn
there are plenty of places and people to contact on the lists and email setups no?
2013-06-29 17:59:27
alex_joni
contact point for cooperation
2013-06-29 17:59:35
zultron
It's early to say what the new organizational structure should be. But that doesn't necessarily mean the current board can't be dissolved.
2013-06-29 17:59:37
alex_joni
not only for legal threats :)
2013-06-29 17:59:45
mshaver1
mhaberler: what is the structural problem?
2013-06-29 17:59:51
alex_joni
but lets table it and discuss it further before voting
2013-06-29 17:59:59
Kenneth_Lerman
Cooperate with whom? We are a herd of cats.
2013-06-29 17:59:59
mhaberler
the lack of shepherding
2013-06-29 18:00:00
seb_kuzminsky
this is not the forum to discuss structural problems
2013-06-29 18:00:04
mhaberler
(and lots more)
2013-06-29 18:00:13
archivist
if the group ever needs to pay its own server etc
2013-06-29 18:00:15
seb_kuzminsky
this is a huge can of worms, let's open it elsewhere
2013-06-29 18:00:19
Kenneth_Lerman
True. No discussions... proposals only.
2013-06-29 18:00:25
seb_kuzminsky
i move we table this and discuss offline and move on
2013-06-29 18:00:32
tjtr33
yes
2013-06-29 18:00:35
viesturs
agreed to Seb
2013-06-29 18:00:36
cdsteinkuehler
+1 table
2013-06-29 18:00:39
zultron
table
2013-06-29 18:00:39
Kenneth_Lerman
Yup. (agree with seb -- table it)
2013-06-29 18:00:43
mhaberler
I move to put the question "board or no board" on the agenda in 3 months from now
2013-06-29 18:00:56
Connor
agree to table it.. but not to move it offline.. as that might exclude people who want to have input.
2013-06-29 18:01:00
PetefromTn
table with further discussion onIRC
2013-06-29 18:01:08
seb_kuzminsky
mhaberler: that's fine, but let's discuss it more before then
2013-06-29 18:01:12
PetefromTn
and email lists
2013-06-29 18:01:16
steve_stallings
please let the moderator call for a vote before voting
2013-06-29 18:01:20
zultron
No, let's put it on the agenda each month until it's resolved.
2013-06-29 18:01:23
mshaver1
I'll agree with mhaberler that we shouldn't let this go > 3 months
2013-06-29 18:01:27
seb_kuzminsky
Connor: by "offline" i meant "not in #linuxcnc-meet, but in the mailing lists and the normal irc channels"
2013-06-29 18:01:52
Connor
seb_kuzminsky: that's not offline. :) That's not in the linuxcnc-meet channel. :)
2013-06-29 18:01:56
mshaver1
but I also agree with zultron that we should work on it now
2013-06-29 18:02:01
Kenneth_Lerman
Yes to chairperson -- how is he/she selected.
2013-06-29 18:02:16
cradek
sorry, I was premature again
2013-06-29 18:02:23
ssi
it's like watching tennis
2013-06-29 18:02:25
PetefromTn
woah what happened there LOL
2013-06-29 18:02:36
PetefromTn
or angry cats...
2013-06-29 18:02:49
Connor
seb_kuzminsky: I'm good with mailing list and normal IRC room. :)
2013-06-29 18:02:51
cradek
I don't think we should vote today. Obviously needs more discussion.
2013-06-29 18:02:52
micges
this is major problem, we should arrange meet here to discuss only this
2013-06-29 18:03:13
PetefromTn
not here this is for mettings and voting.
2013-06-29 18:03:14
Kenneth_Lerman
Let's get a discussion going on the email lists.
2013-06-29 18:03:15
cmorley
Cradek - you are the moderator -I think the consensus was - table it.
2013-06-29 18:03:16
cradek
I'd like to see someone propose exactly what the board should do
2013-06-29 18:03:17
seb_kuzminsky
Connor: cool, that's what i meant ("offline" is day-job-speak for "not in this meeting")
2013-06-29 18:03:22
tjtr33
yes if we talk about anything a LOT it is a discussion, not a decision
2013-06-29 18:03:27
andypugh
I don't see that we can prevent any particular board member from resigning. Though that leaves a vacant board, not no board.
2013-06-29 18:03:34
cradek
but not here/now
2013-06-29 18:03:38
zultron
Agreed. So let's table it and come back next month. Doesn't have to be resolved then either, but it should not be dropped and forgotten.
2013-06-29 18:03:46
acondit
check
2013-06-29 18:03:48
cradek
ok let's move on
2013-06-29 18:03:52
mshaver1
zultron: agree
2013-06-29 18:03:57
jepler
sorry I pinged out. what was the result of 8?
2013-06-29 18:04:04
PetefromTn
so how do we pick the chairperson?
2013-06-29 18:04:08
seb_kuzminsky
jepler: passed unanimously
2013-06-29 18:04:09
tjtr33
i agree to table it 'dissolve board of dirs'
2013-06-29 18:04:11
zultron
result of 8 is table it.
2013-06-29 18:04:20
seb_kuzminsky
wait, 8 was "seb for rm", right?
2013-06-29 18:04:21
zultron
Do we need to vote?
2013-06-29 18:04:29
zultron
Sorry, my mistake.
2013-06-29 18:04:31
jepler
I am asking about "DISCUSS: 8: Seb should be the release manager"
2013-06-29 18:04:37
seb_kuzminsky
it's confusing that the wiki doesnt have numbers on the items
2013-06-29 18:04:38
ssi
passed unanimously
2013-06-29 18:04:39
cradek
jepler: we decided yes
2013-06-29 18:04:41
zultron
Result was 'aye'.
2013-06-29 18:04:46
jepler
ok thanks, sorry for derail.
2013-06-29 18:04:48
cradek
seb_kuzminsky: let's add numbers for next time
2013-06-29 18:04:52
seb_kuzminsky
yes
2013-06-29 18:05:00
cradek
on #9, dissolve board, we're revisiting it next time
2013-06-29 18:05:05
cradek
moving on
2013-06-29 18:05:07
micges
cradek: we should arrange meet for this, it was rised many times on list and died there with no decissions
2013-06-29 18:05:12
cmorley
do we have to vote to table?
2013-06-29 18:05:15
cradek
no
2013-06-29 18:05:16
zultron
Do we need to vote on #9 to table?
2013-06-29 18:05:25
seb_kuzminsky
i think we dont
2013-06-29 18:05:28
cmorley
ok
2013-06-29 18:05:30
cradek
we just came to no decision
2013-06-29 18:05:39
mhaberler
I think this will reappear automatically
2013-06-29 18:05:42
cmorley
sounds good
2013-06-29 18:05:47
seb_kuzminsky
lets move on
2013-06-29 18:05:49
zultron
Me neither. We've spent the 15 minutes and it's automatically tabled.
2013-06-29 18:05:52
tjtr33
no vote needed ,later discussion needed, move on
2013-06-29 18:05:57
seb_kuzminsky
zultron: i like that method
2013-06-29 18:05:59
PetefromTn
I'm cornfused are we on ten now?
2013-06-29 18:06:07
tjtr33
now we are
2013-06-29 18:06:09
zultron
Now we are. :)
2013-06-29 18:06:11
PetefromTn
LOL
2013-06-29 18:06:14
Kenneth_Lerman
how do we select the moderator?
2013-06-29 18:06:16
cradek
Kenneth_Lerman: want to start?
2013-06-29 18:06:27
ssi
same way we select the secretary, I imagine
2013-06-29 18:06:30
cradek
Kenneth_Lerman: what do you propose?
2013-06-29 18:06:33
tjtr33
i agree already :) ( obvios need)
2013-06-29 18:06:35
jepler
is this different from 6/7 which I thought were about the running of the meetings? if by moderator you mean a moderated irc channel, strongly disagree.
2013-06-29 18:06:36
PetefromTn
yeah how do we find this distinghuished individual?
2013-06-29 18:06:50
Kenneth_Lerman
I propose cradek for permanent moderator.
2013-06-29 18:06:56
ssi
what if he's unavailable?
2013-06-29 18:06:57
seb_kuzminsky
i suggest the moderator volunteer, subject to community veto
2013-06-29 18:07:01
mhaberler
No I dont
2013-06-29 18:07:03
tjtr33
the guy who made you progreess theu 1-0 :)
2013-06-29 18:07:04
mhaberler
I think it should rotate
2013-06-29 18:07:08
archivist
press gang someone
2013-06-29 18:07:14
zultron
I don't think everyone has the right skills.
2013-06-29 18:07:31
ssi
zultron: agreed
2013-06-29 18:07:38
ssi
but neither do I think it should be one person
2013-06-29 18:07:38
zultron
I sure don't. But then, I wouldn't volunteer either
2013-06-29 18:07:40
Kenneth_Lerman
I wouldn't know how to change to topic (but I could learn._
2013-06-29 18:07:42
seb_kuzminsky
ssi: i agree with "same way we select secretary"
2013-06-29 18:07:43
mshaver1
I'd be happy with permanent cradek, but that's not fair to him
2013-06-29 18:07:46
tjtr33
lloking back, it was the group whi pushed the forward buttons
2013-06-29 18:08:00
acondit
You need someone who has the skills and the willingness.
2013-06-29 18:08:08
PetefromTn
agreed cradek is good but not fair to him either
2013-06-29 18:08:12
seb_kuzminsky
acondit: yes
2013-06-29 18:08:15
mhaberler
I am both against permanent moderators and scribes
2013-06-29 18:08:15
Kenneth_Lerman
Thanks, Matt. You just volunteered for the next meeting. :-)
2013-06-29 18:08:16
ssi
yep. Volunteers sign up on the wiki, if multiple, vote at start of meeting
2013-06-29 18:08:17
tjtr33
keep what works, why one person, the groups doing well
2013-06-29 18:08:36
ssi
although WHO IS GOING TO CALL FOR THE VOTE FOR MODERATOR?!
2013-06-29 18:08:41
seb_kuzminsky
i think cradek has done a good job keeping the meeting on track (with only a few glitches in /topic etc)
2013-06-29 18:08:42
Kenneth_Lerman
I guess I agree with Michael and ssi.
2013-06-29 18:08:44
mshaver1
So, I guess we agree that their should be a moderator, and that we need more thatn just cradek?
2013-06-29 18:08:47
cradek
this is bordering on silly
2013-06-29 18:08:48
zultron
mhaberler, agreed. We should rotate, even if I'm forced to volunteer.
2013-06-29 18:08:50
mhaberler
at the beginning of each meeting, period
2013-06-29 18:09:00
seb_kuzminsky
yes, no permanent positions
2013-06-29 18:09:16
PetefromTn
I say put it on the wiki those who want it and then the first vote is who gets it..
2013-06-29 18:09:18
tjtr33
agreed
2013-06-29 18:09:19
mhaberler
no, it isnt silly at all IMV
2013-06-29 18:09:21
cmorley
sign up on the meeting wiki page
2013-06-29 18:09:37
mshaver1
Moderator: Yes - Rotates? Yes
2013-06-29 18:09:39
zultron
Why silly?
2013-06-29 18:09:42
seb_kuzminsky
both positions should be volunteer, and it'll quickly become obvious who can do a good job and not
2013-06-29 18:09:47
mhaberler
sure
2013-06-29 18:09:50
alex_joni
volunteer on the wiki page
2013-06-29 18:09:53
alex_joni
before the meeting
2013-06-29 18:10:00
alex_joni
when the meeting starts this should be fixed
2013-06-29 18:10:01
cradek
I agree someone needs to take charge of the topic changing thing. I think someone will step up and do it. I don't know how to make a system to choose the person and I don't think it's that important to formalize it
2013-06-29 18:10:03
mhaberler
Ken gets the IRC crashcourse ;)
2013-06-29 18:10:10
acondit
alex_joni - sounds good to me
2013-06-29 18:10:21
viesturs
any chance for some "readme" for potential volunteers? I feel like I might try, but I definitely do not have technical know-how to change topics in chat etc.
2013-06-29 18:10:41
seb_kuzminsky
we could add some howto info to the meetings-on-irc page easily enough
2013-06-29 18:10:44
cradek
viesturs: any irc tutorial, or the help for your irc program, will say how to do that
2013-06-29 18:10:50
alex_joni
viesturs: sit in on a ocuple meetings, then volunteer if you think you're up for the vote
2013-06-29 18:10:51
zultron
Yes, a wiki page could be created for that, viesturs .
2013-06-29 18:10:53
cmorley
Seb -yes good idea
2013-06-29 18:10:54
alex_joni
err.. task
2013-06-29 18:10:56
archivist
changing topic is trivial if not protected
2013-06-29 18:11:07
mhaberler
maybe we should extract the role expectation to the moderator on the mailing list, based on the experience here
2013-06-29 18:11:14
Connor
yea /topic topic info
2013-06-29 18:11:18
archivist
seb_kuzminsky, can you remove the topic protection
2013-06-29 18:11:34
tjtr33
the group has asked for the topic to be changed, and retracted, that works ok
2013-06-29 18:11:42
seb_kuzminsky
heh, maybe, but i dont know how!
2013-06-29 18:11:53
seb_kuzminsky
seb_kuzminsky sucks at irc
2013-06-29 18:11:54
cradek
we'll figure out the technical bits
2013-06-29 18:11:57
CaptHindsight
remove the T flag
2013-06-29 18:11:58
archivist
the moderator has to be an op
2013-06-29 18:12:01
PetefromTn
so does PetefromTn
2013-06-29 18:12:09
seb_kuzminsky
archivist: yes
2013-06-29 18:12:12
Kenneth_Lerman
Thanks, folks. I've got to leave.
2013-06-29 18:12:18
seb_kuzminsky
thanks Kenneth_Lerman !
2013-06-29 18:12:19
zultron
So what's the proposal, folks?
2013-06-29 18:12:19
cradek
Kenneth_Lerman: thanks for coming
2013-06-29 18:12:22
PetefromTn
cya keith
2013-06-29 18:12:24
tjtr33
thx ken, bye
2013-06-29 18:12:30
micges
see you
2013-06-29 18:12:38
mhaberler
cu!
2013-06-29 18:12:43
cradek
I think this will be emergent and we don't need to decide now
2013-06-29 18:12:47
Connor
is the meeting agenda posted anywhere ?
2013-06-29 18:12:51
mshaver1
So, is there something that can be voted on?
2013-06-29 18:12:56
tjtr33
did we eat up the hour? seems like we're discussing, not deciding
2013-06-29 18:13:00
cradek
not that I see
2013-06-29 18:13:14
cradek
let's move on?
2013-06-29 18:13:21
seb_kuzminsky
proposal: "a volunteer moderator will keep the meeting moving forward and update the topic to represent the phase of the meeting"
2013-06-29 18:13:27
archivist
I saw no time limits for whole meeting either
2013-06-29 18:13:29
zultron
Sure, let's table it. I'm sure we'll work out the next moderator without a procedure. :)
2013-06-29 18:13:31
cmorley
Seb -yes
2013-06-29 18:13:35
seb_kuzminsky
technical details to be hammered out
2013-06-29 18:13:39
cradek
I'm with zultron
2013-06-29 18:13:41
mhaberler
agreed
2013-06-29 18:13:41
alex_joni
archivist: number of topics x 15 min
2013-06-29 18:13:48
tjtr33
seb - yes
2013-06-29 18:13:49
micges
zultron: agreed
2013-06-29 18:13:55
alex_joni
table
2013-06-29 18:14:00
seb_kuzminsky
i'm ready to vote but i'm ok with tabling too
2013-06-29 18:14:02
mshaver1
table
2013-06-29 18:14:03
PetefromTn
agreed needs more discussion altho it seems simple enough
2013-06-29 18:14:14
mhaberler
next agenda: items should be numbered, not bulleted
2013-06-29 18:14:20
ssi
alex_joni: there's 13 topics on wiki, so that's 3 hr 15m :P
2013-06-29 18:14:24
cradek
haha yeah we'll figure that out for next time
2013-06-29 18:14:31
alex_joni
ssi: that's max
2013-06-29 18:14:32
zultron
mhaberler, add it yourself: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Meeting201307
2013-06-29 18:14:35
mshaver1
Next?
2013-06-29 18:14:39
cradek
let's go on.
2013-06-29 18:14:41
alex_joni
it's been 1h 15 min, and we are at #10
2013-06-29 18:14:46
seb_kuzminsky
yes lets move on
2013-06-29 18:14:48
ssi
yeah we're doing good, but lets move
2013-06-29 18:14:58
archivist
I could put the agenda in the bot ahead of time
2013-06-29 18:14:59
tjtr33
#10 i vote table it
2013-06-29 18:15:01
zultron
Woo hoo!
2013-06-29 18:15:10
cradek
I think this should be discussed outside the meeting and brought to a concrete proposal
2013-06-29 18:15:15
cdsteinkuehler
IMHO this is a discussion, not a proposal...or am I missing something?
2013-06-29 18:15:20
mshaver1
Is this a yes or no questions?
2013-06-29 18:15:31
ssi
cradek: agreed, it's not concrete enough
2013-06-29 18:15:34
cradek
cdsteinkuehler: we didn't really have that rule yet when it was written
2013-06-29 18:15:37
alex_joni
mshaver1: all that gets voted in here are yes/no questions
2013-06-29 18:15:37
zultron
Quick discussion, please. I didn't know about the 'proposal' business when I wrote that.
2013-06-29 18:15:45
cradek
zultron: go ahead and start us
2013-06-29 18:15:53
tjtr33
plz
2013-06-29 18:15:53
alex_joni
anoything not yes/no gets discussed previously
2013-06-29 18:15:55
Connor
cradek: How many total topics are for today ?
2013-06-29 18:15:58
ssi
13
2013-06-29 18:16:00
cdsteinkuehler
I think it relates to what goes into 2.6, and how git repositories get moved around.
2013-06-29 18:16:04
DaveCVI
I had impression from Wichita that there might be some plan afoot re this topic - maybe those directly involved could bring us up to date?
2013-06-29 18:16:09
seb_kuzminsky
this is a discussion, but briefly: i reviewed the rtos-master-v0 branch at the hackfest and like parts of it and dislike parts of it
2013-06-29 18:16:15
zultron
As we all know, Michael's git repo contains a large number of contributions not integrated into mainline.
2013-06-29 18:16:21
seb_kuzminsky
i like the new rtos work and i mostly like the new pru stuff
2013-06-29 18:16:34
seb_kuzminsky
i dislike the emcweb thing, partially because of naming
2013-06-29 18:16:44
zultron
There's a lot of excitement about it, and also disagreement for how it'll eventually be included.
2013-06-29 18:16:46
jepler
I recall we saw that some files did not have a clear license notice
2013-06-29 18:16:51
Connor
rtos? Real Time Operating System ??
2013-06-29 18:16:55
seb_kuzminsky
i havent seen the universal build yet but i like the idea
2013-06-29 18:16:57
seb_kuzminsky
Connor: yes
2013-06-29 18:16:57
PetefromTn
no idea what we are talking about here...
2013-06-29 18:17:01
mhaberler
are we in a 'liking' discussion yet?
2013-06-29 18:17:12
ssi
PetefromTn: welcome to the developer part of the meeting boys ;)
2013-06-29 18:17:14
tjtr33
linuxcncweb thing is ok?
2013-06-29 18:17:39
PetefromTn
ssi: LOL....DEEP WATER
2013-06-29 18:17:51
CaptHindsight
I like the option of a web thing or local UI
2013-06-29 18:17:53
zultron
I'd at least like to know that the community supports the work and wishes it to be integrated in a reasonable timeframe.
2013-06-29 18:17:59
mhaberler
not sure we should discuss this at the file naming level
2013-06-29 18:18:06
ssi
what are we discussing exactly
2013-06-29 18:18:10
andypugh
PetefromTn/Connor: Running Linuxcnc on normal (or more-normal) kernels
2013-06-29 18:18:11
zultron
(I think I know the answer, but would like to hear it again.)
2013-06-29 18:18:12
seb_kuzminsky
zultron: very much yes, from your newly elected RM at least :-)
2013-06-29 18:18:12
ssi
I saw like three things get mentioned
2013-06-29 18:18:24
PetefromTn
is this some kind of internet addon for linuxCNC?
2013-06-29 18:18:25
CaptHindsight
yes, we need RTOS to move ahead to newer kernels to get the driver support for newer hardware
2013-06-29 18:18:26
cmorley
I support it all.
2013-06-29 18:18:32
mshaver1
zultron: I like it and want it integrated ASAP.
2013-06-29 18:18:33
cradek
zultron: I do and I do
2013-06-29 18:18:55
zultron
Let me formulate that into a proposal:
2013-06-29 18:18:58
seb_kuzminsky
i want to merge it, but i want to review it for technical and legal problems first
2013-06-29 18:19:04
jepler
OK, more proposal-ish: we would like to support xenomai userspace and rt-preempt userspace into master branch before 2.6 is branched?
2013-06-29 18:19:05
DaveCVI
I like the work, perer things to get merged. to do so seems to require a plan - if there is one, I'd vote on it here, if not I'd ask that those qualified to do so create one for decision next mtg.
2013-06-29 18:19:11
PetefromTn
what do you mean more modern computer stuff here?
2013-06-29 18:19:28
andypugh
Need to leave, please use as appropriate "aye, aye, aye, aye, aye" :-)
2013-06-29 18:19:30
jepler
s/support/merge support for/
2013-06-29 18:19:31
zultron
The LinuxCNC community supports the RTOS (and other? mhaberler?) and wishes it to be integrated in a reasonable timeframe.
2013-06-29 18:19:33
seb_kuzminsky
jepler: that's a proposal i approve of
2013-06-29 18:19:42
zultron
jepler, that's good too.
2013-06-29 18:19:46
seb_kuzminsky
zultron: very much yes
2013-06-29 18:19:50
mhaberler
me too ;)
2013-06-29 18:19:54
mshaver1
yes
2013-06-29 18:19:56
seb_kuzminsky
the new rtos support is the most important feature to get into 2.6 imo
2013-06-29 18:20:03
cncbasher
yes
2013-06-29 18:20:04
cradek
I agree with seb and jepler
2013-06-29 18:20:08
zultron
cmorley, you have a big piece in there.
2013-06-29 18:20:09
ssi
this is replacing RTAI?
2013-06-29 18:20:13
ssi
or just in addition to?
2013-06-29 18:20:14
cradek
heck I probably agree with everyone
2013-06-29 18:20:15
Connor
OKay guys, slow down for a second.. and explain what we are talking about. Not all of us are developers.. we need a quick over view of what we're talking about..
2013-06-29 18:20:17
seb_kuzminsky
ssi: no, adding to it
2013-06-29 18:20:18
zultron
in addition to, ssi
2013-06-29 18:20:19
cradek
ssi: addition to
2013-06-29 18:20:21
ssi
ok
2013-06-29 18:20:23
mshaver1
ssi: addition
2013-06-29 18:20:24
mhaberler
supplement RTAI by more options
2013-06-29 18:20:27
jepler
Connor: linuxcnc relies on realtime kernel extensions.
2013-06-29 18:20:35
jepler
Connor: for many years we have used RTAI kernel extensions
2013-06-29 18:20:43
seb_kuzminsky
zultron: does this provide the 'set expectations' thing you asked for?
2013-06-29 18:21:06
jepler
Connor: there are at least two others, xenomai and rt-preempt; both have different strengths and weaknesses, but we think that they are both more likely to work on current and future versions of linux than rtai
2013-06-29 18:21:10
mhaberler
Connor: you will be able to run a single Linuxcnc binary package on any of RTAI, RT-Preempt, Xenomai or vanilla kernels without rebuild/reinstall
2013-06-29 18:21:15
zultron
Yes. Also hoped cmorley would pipe up, since he has contributions in there. cmorley ?
2013-06-29 18:21:26
ssi
mhaberler: without rebuild? neat
2013-06-29 18:21:27
PetefromTn
so this is just to implement future real time systems into the progaam then?
2013-06-29 18:21:28
cmorley
I did?
2013-06-29 18:21:38
seb_kuzminsky
PetefromTn: yes
2013-06-29 18:21:42
zultron
gscreen
2013-06-29 18:21:50
mhaberler
more platforms, yes, includes postwar ;)
2013-06-29 18:21:50
seb_kuzminsky
gscreen's in master already
2013-06-29 18:21:53
cmorley
Gscreen is in master already
2013-06-29 18:21:55
Connor
instead of just the RTAI we've been runnign on ?
2013-06-29 18:21:56
tjtr33
Conner, i was about to suggest that we (the vast unwashed) have to know when its over our heads and not vote at all, not even abstain- explanations to us would overrun the hour meeting by days )
2013-06-29 18:21:56
zultron
Ah, then never mind. :)
2013-06-29 18:22:06
PetefromTn
sounds good to me what little I know of it.\
2013-06-29 18:22:08
mshaver1
PetefromTn: yes, and adding two rt systems that work today
2013-06-29 18:22:09
tjtr33
Connor ( sorry -10 sp )
2013-06-29 18:22:30
ssi
so I think the "should we attempt to get new RTOS support into 2.6" is a pretty clear proposal
2013-06-29 18:22:33
mhaberler
Connor: yes
2013-06-29 18:22:38
alex_joni
tjtr33: that should be a topic for discussions before the meetings
2013-06-29 18:22:41
ssi
the "+ other bits in mhabeler's repo" part probably bears more discussion
2013-06-29 18:22:43
zultron
Let's vote.
2013-06-29 18:22:50
cradek
zultron: I don't think a vote is needed here - we all want to work with you to get this merged
2013-06-29 18:22:51
Connor
okay. Cool. Got it.
2013-06-29 18:23:02
seb_kuzminsky
zultron: what are we voting on? jepler's proposal?
2013-06-29 18:23:03
cradek
also I'm not quite sure what we'd be voting on
2013-06-29 18:23:08
tjtr33
alex_joni, yep ( and we are into discussion mode now )
2013-06-29 18:23:10
PetefromTn
When i asked about topics for discussion earlier on the other forum I heard crickets..
2013-06-29 18:23:10
zultron
I'm fine with that. Thanks fellas!
2013-06-29 18:23:19
mhaberler
ssi: my repo is a bit too large to be discussed as a whole I'd think
2013-06-29 18:23:22
ssi
agreed
2013-06-29 18:23:27
cradek
any objections to moving on?
2013-06-29 18:23:28
seb_kuzminsky
mhaberler: agreed
2013-06-29 18:23:29
alex_joni
tjtr33: I know, was just talking about future
2013-06-29 18:23:36
seb_kuzminsky
i'm ready to move on
2013-06-29 18:23:38
zultron
Move on
2013-06-29 18:23:39
alex_joni
cradek: lets formalize it with a vote
2013-06-29 18:23:39
mhaberler
fine
2013-06-29 18:23:49
cmorley
move on
2013-06-29 18:23:52
PetefromTn
sure
2013-06-29 18:23:52
zultron
Move on, or vote now.
2013-06-29 18:23:57
Connor
agreed
2013-06-29 18:24:00
jepler
I would prefer to see my proposal voted than leave this in limbo a month
2013-06-29 18:24:15
mshaver1
vote
2013-06-29 18:24:16
DaveCVI
UH, but I'd still like to have some idea when the multi rtos would get merged - any one willing to guess?
2013-06-29 18:24:16
cradek
jepler: restate it please
2013-06-29 18:24:17
ssi
let's vote with the knowledge that we're voting on RTOS specifically
2013-06-29 18:24:18
mhaberler
jepler: which one again?
2013-06-29 18:24:21
jepler
because it is a way to say as a community that we want these contributions from zultron mhaberler cdsteinkuehler and others
2013-06-29 18:24:23
micges
lets chage this to yes/no question
2013-06-29 18:24:24
cmorley
Zultron - your work is wanted and not wasted
2013-06-29 18:24:31
seb_kuzminsky
11:19 < jepler> OK, more proposal-ish: we would like to support xenomai userspace and rt-preempt userspace into master branch before 2.6 is branched?
2013-06-29 18:24:38
mhaberler
ok
2013-06-29 18:24:51
acondit
Yes
2013-06-29 18:24:52
tjtr33
jepler i agree it is wanted
2013-06-29 18:24:58
ssi
yes
2013-06-29 18:24:58
seb_kuzminsky
i vote yes
2013-06-29 18:24:59
cradek
yes
2013-06-29 18:25:02
jepler
yes
2013-06-29 18:25:02
alex_joni
yes
2013-06-29 18:25:02
archivist
yes
2013-06-29 18:25:03
micges
yes
2013-06-29 18:25:04
CaptHindsight
yes
2013-06-29 18:25:05
mshaver1
yes
2013-06-29 18:25:05
DaveCVI
yes
2013-06-29 18:25:05
tjtr33
yes
2013-06-29 18:25:06
cmorley
yes
2013-06-29 18:25:07
acondit
Yes
2013-06-29 18:25:08
viesturs
yes
2013-06-29 18:25:09
Connor
yes
2013-06-29 18:25:11
steve_stallings
finally a clearly stated vote, I vote yes
2013-06-29 18:25:11
mhaberler
I want to make sure it is understood that will be based on the unfied build branch, not any earlier
2013-06-29 18:25:13
mhaberler
yes
2013-06-29 18:25:13
PetefromTn
aye
2013-06-29 18:25:39
zultron
Me too, fellas.
2013-06-29 18:25:41
ssi
out of curiosity, will this make any significant breaks in backward compatibility?
2013-06-29 18:25:45
seb_kuzminsky
great!
2013-06-29 18:25:46
mhaberler
no
2013-06-29 18:25:50
seb_kuzminsky
ssi: i hope not
2013-06-29 18:25:52
cradek
mhaberler: please start us
2013-06-29 18:25:54
jepler
ssi: some hardware drivers will require source-level changes
2013-06-29 18:25:55
ssi
cause one of the things i want to propose for next week is we formalize semantic versioning as described at semver.org
2013-06-29 18:25:55
mhaberler
ok
2013-06-29 18:25:58
DaveCVI
mhabler: you and Seb can work out timing between unified brqanch and 2.6
2013-06-29 18:26:08
zultron
ssi, No more RTLinux, probably insignificant to most.
2013-06-29 18:26:10
alex_joni
ssi: this should be transparent to user experiences
2013-06-29 18:26:14
ssi
ok excellent
2013-06-29 18:26:15
mhaberler
We discussed the downsides of the current development model at Wichita
2013-06-29 18:26:33
jepler
I am at best ambivalent about switching hosting to github.
2013-06-29 18:26:36
ssi
yea I missed it, and I wish I hadn't :(
2013-06-29 18:26:39
seb_kuzminsky
i like the pull request model as an addition to the direct commit model
2013-06-29 18:26:39
mhaberler
small group of devs with push access, many contributions falling by the wayside
2013-06-29 18:26:40
jepler
I do not like the pull request model
2013-06-29 18:26:52
ssi
I like the pull request model a lot
2013-06-29 18:26:55
seb_kuzminsky
it's a good way for casual contributors to interfact
2013-06-29 18:27:03
ssi
I'm partial to bitbucket over github, but github is quite alright with me
2013-06-29 18:27:09
mshaver1
jepler: explain?
2013-06-29 18:27:18
ssi
and I think it provides tools that are VERY benificial to a development model with this many contributors
2013-06-29 18:27:21
jepler
I really don't want to force contributors to use a proprietary web app to contribute
2013-06-29 18:27:26
mhaberler
what we need is to have a more inclusive form of cooperating to avoid losing valuable work, and that might mean a bit of adapting
2013-06-29 18:27:31
cradek
I don't want to move our primary git from our own domain into any "free" service.
2013-06-29 18:27:48
ssi
cradek: what are your concerns with it?
2013-06-29 18:27:50
Connor
jepler: You have a counter proposal ?
2013-06-29 18:27:51
mhaberler
why ?
2013-06-29 18:27:58
cradek
cooperation is great and pull requests, emailing patches, etc are all fine as the individuals prefer
2013-06-29 18:27:59
jepler
Connor: status quo for git hosting
2013-06-29 18:28:12
jepler
this echoes some of my thoughts on pull requests: http://laurent.bachelier.name/2012/05/github-kinda-sucks/
2013-06-29 18:28:15
cradek
I don't see any reason to officially prefer one kind of contribution
2013-06-29 18:28:19
mhaberler
the servers we currently have leave to be desired, and the cooperating model is know to discourage folks
2013-06-29 18:28:28
mhaberler
that needs fixing IMO
2013-06-29 18:28:33
acondit
One thing the pull model allows is to ensure appropriate license language from contributor
2013-06-29 18:28:36
mshaver1
Be careful, there are now three issues: 1. The pull request model. 2: Web interface vs command line, and 3: which servers.
2013-06-29 18:28:45
mhaberler
yes
2013-06-29 18:28:52
mhaberler
I am focused on the operating model
2013-06-29 18:28:59
cradek
what proposal we discussing? unfortunately there are two in #12
2013-06-29 18:29:01
mhaberler
and that has proven to be deficient IMO
2013-06-29 18:29:06
cdsteinkuehler
I have never used anything but command line with github
2013-06-29 18:29:08
ssi
PR model and the hosted service web gui allows for VERY CONVENIENT code review
2013-06-29 18:29:13
Connor
pul:l yes, github: no
2013-06-29 18:29:26
mhaberler
explain how you would do that?
2013-06-29 18:29:30
jepler
pull model probably good. github pull request would get a no from me.
2013-06-29 18:29:34
cradek
let's do just one at a time
2013-06-29 18:29:59
cradek
I don't want to move our primary git from our own domain into any "free" service.
2013-06-29 18:30:01
Connor
I say no. leave it under our domain
2013-06-29 18:30:16
alex_joni
alex_joni agrees with keeping git.linuxcnc.org
2013-06-29 18:30:16
mhaberler
I do not care if we use the github pull request model. I do care very much about the fact that it is trivial to fork and add a change
2013-06-29 18:30:20
seb_kuzminsky
git.linuxcnc.org is a better place for our repo
2013-06-29 18:30:24
cdsteinkuehler
IIRC, the whole gihub thing is to make it easier and more visible for casual contributors (like me) to share code with others w/o needing push access to linuxcnc git or MAH git.
2013-06-29 18:30:25
cmorley
is it not mirrored to git hub now?
2013-06-29 18:30:32
ssi
the counterproposal then would be to use purchased software on our private servers that give us the same features
2013-06-29 18:30:33
mshaver1
I'm also skeptical of anything "free".
2013-06-29 18:30:36
seb_kuzminsky
cmorley: yes it is
2013-06-29 18:30:38
mhaberler
I vote against, this has been proven to be defective at the community level
2013-06-29 18:30:52
mhaberler
well then pay for it
2013-06-29 18:30:54
zultron
Agree with cdsteinkuehler
2013-06-29 18:30:56
cradek
mhaberler: as discussed at wichita we already have a mirror on github that is kept up to date to make the forking on github easy
2013-06-29 18:31:04
Connor
some times the "cloud" isn't always the right way.
2013-06-29 18:31:08
mhaberler
that was not my understanding
2013-06-29 18:31:09
cradek
ideally we would make this more evident
2013-06-29 18:31:11
acondit
mshaver1 - how about linuxcnc
2013-06-29 18:31:14
cmorley
if it's mirrored don't we get the best of both worlds?
2013-06-29 18:31:14
ssi
ok I'm very confused as to who thinks what and why
2013-06-29 18:31:16
DaveCVI
mshaver1: realy> you said that? LCNC is free... ;-)
2013-06-29 18:31:20
ssi
clearly this needs more discussion
2013-06-29 18:31:21
cradek
cmorley: yes I think so
2013-06-29 18:31:22
cdsteinkuehler
I do not particularly care if "official" linuxcnc git repo is on github or wherever, but it needs to be easy for new users to modify and share their changes
2013-06-29 18:31:39
seb_kuzminsky
people are of course welcome to publish their own branches on github
2013-06-29 18:31:44
mshaver1
mhaberler: what is defective?
2013-06-29 18:31:46
cmorley
we just need to promote it more then?
2013-06-29 18:31:49
mhaberler
I think thats a half-baked idea, I have no idea what's so great about the dreamhost servers and whats so bad about github
2013-06-29 18:31:52
cradek
https://github.com/jepler/linuxcnc-mirror
2013-06-29 18:32:03
seb_kuzminsky
mhaberler: our git is not on dreamhost
2013-06-29 18:32:14
mshaver1
DaveCVI: You are confusing free with libre :)
2013-06-29 18:32:17
mhaberler
fine, still it leaves room for improvement
2013-06-29 18:32:20
seb_kuzminsky
i move we table this and move on
2013-06-29 18:32:24
cradek
I don't care about where the server is. I positively care about it being under our domain and full control
2013-06-29 18:32:27
zultron
Problem with jepler's github repo is there aren't enough folks with access that could review & accept pull requests.
2013-06-29 18:32:47
seb_kuzminsky
zultron: that may be, but that's different than the proposal on the agenda
2013-06-29 18:32:51
DaveCVI
The main topic seems to be "few with direct access" vs "many with more access" - what service and hdw the repo is hosted on seems a 2nd level topic
2013-06-29 18:32:52
cradek
zultron: frankly I think we need to add a lot of people and we oughta work on that
2013-06-29 18:32:53
ssi
cradek: what's the actual concern?
2013-06-29 18:32:59
ssi
github is going to steal our open source code?
2013-06-29 18:33:10
mhaberler
no
2013-06-29 18:33:13
zultron
And problem with current linuxcnc.org repo is there also aren't enough people reviewing submissions.
2013-06-29 18:33:26
seb_kuzminsky
ssi: it's more like "github may start showing us ads"
2013-06-29 18:33:33
ssi
really?
2013-06-29 18:33:35
mhaberler
exactly where?
2013-06-29 18:33:50
mshaver1
zultron: would moving to githib help gain more reviewers?
2013-06-29 18:33:52
seb_kuzminsky
the topic is "should we move our git repo to github", but that's not what we're currently discussing
2013-06-29 18:33:58
zultron
I don't have enough information to vote on this topic, and think it needs to be changed to reflect what I see as the real problem.
2013-06-29 18:33:58
cdsteinkuehler
An aside to this discussion is if I succeed in getting LinuxCNC used by the 3D printer world, there will suddenly be a *LOT* of tweaks that need tracking.
2013-06-29 18:34:02
seb_kuzminsky
let's either vote on the move or table it
2013-06-29 18:34:08
steve_stallings
how hard is it to merge contributions from the github mirror back into our existing repository?
2013-06-29 18:34:14
zultron
mshaver1, I don't think it will; something else needs to be changed.
2013-06-29 18:34:15
cradek
steve_stallings: trivial
2013-06-29 18:34:16
seb_kuzminsky
steve_stallings: it's trivial
2013-06-29 18:34:23
mhaberler
it would help not loosing contributions, and that is a majore issue as far as I'm concerned
2013-06-29 18:34:26
Connor
I say vote. and I say NO. leave it at git.linuxcnc.org
2013-06-29 18:34:26
ssi
trivial for who?
2013-06-29 18:34:45
seb_kuzminsky
ssi: for anyone with push access to our repo, which seems to be the main topic of interest
2013-06-29 18:34:46
cdsteinkuehler
Trivial for anyone who uses git
2013-06-29 18:34:52
mhaberler
Connor: care about giving a better reason except 'no'?
2013-06-29 18:35:20
mhaberler
no, push access is _not_ the issue, it is about loosing people
2013-06-29 18:35:24
seb_kuzminsky
my reason for not wanting to move is that the gir repo on linuxcnc.org is working well - there's no need to change, nothing to be gained by moving
2013-06-29 18:35:34
archivist
large corp like github can be dangerous keep in house
2013-06-29 18:35:37
zultron
mhaberler, losing contributions is indeed the issue I see. I don't think that a move to github by itself will fix that, though.
2013-06-29 18:35:40
acondit
What is the reason "for" moving it to github?
2013-06-29 18:35:44
mhaberler
technically: maybe - scoially: a failure
2013-06-29 18:35:55
cmorley
Zultron +1
2013-06-29 18:36:03
cradek
I agree with zultron
2013-06-29 18:36:04
ssi
acondit: in my mind, much better tools
2013-06-29 18:36:05
mpictor
well I just joined this channel, but I am really happy with github. easy to find and track interesting things, easy to contribute
2013-06-29 18:36:06
seb_kuzminsky
yes i agree with zultron
2013-06-29 18:36:10
ssi
easier to manage a bigger community of developers
2013-06-29 18:36:19
Connor
mhaberler: Keeping it 100% under our control, under our domain, with no reisk of 'ads' or being forced to pay for hosting.. or risk that their servers crash and burn, or get raided by FBI because someone else is hosting something bad on their servers..
2013-06-29 18:36:26
mshaver1
mhaberler: is there some feature or aspect of github that will allow us to change organizationally that we can't get from our current hosting?
2013-06-29 18:36:36
CaptHindsight
agree with Connor ^^
2013-06-29 18:36:40
mhaberler
where is the feart of loss of control coming from? I dont see any of this
2013-06-29 18:36:43
seb_kuzminsky
people are free to use github - i do. but i dont think our project should live there, i prefer to have it in our own house
2013-06-29 18:36:45
mpictor
Connor: github has refused to honor dmca takedown notices
2013-06-29 18:36:46
cradek
it's either a manpower problem or a push-access-list problem, neither is helped by moving the primary to github
2013-06-29 18:37:07
ssi
I don't either... I work for TBS, we run CNN.com, and we keep ALL our proprietary code on bitbucket (competitor to github)
2013-06-29 18:37:12
CaptHindsight
mpictor: for now
2013-06-29 18:37:12
cdsteinkuehler
I personally like git.linuxcnc.org, and don't think that has to change. It needs to be easier for new users to officially share code changes either via github mirror or some equevilant.
2013-06-29 18:37:13
zultron
I suggest we think about & discuss it on the devel list over the next month and put something targeted at the real problem on the agenda for next meet.
2013-06-29 18:37:15
Connor
mpictor: Doesn't preclude them from a FBI raid. :)
2013-06-29 18:37:17
ssi
I like bitbucket better, but it's a wash
2013-06-29 18:37:18
steve_stallings
would it be possible to have the existing repository default to accepting a pull request automatically if not rejected withing some time window?
2013-06-29 18:37:27
mhaberler
you guys focus on some techie bits and loose the project perspective
2013-06-29 18:37:29
cradek
mhaberler: I think in this situation you have to make the argument FOR moving
2013-06-29 18:37:36
seb_kuzminsky
zultron: i agree - this is a discussion not a decision we're having now
2013-06-29 18:37:50
tjtr33
this is a discussion, table it, its a swamp right now
2013-06-29 18:37:51
cdsteinkuehler
+1 discussion. Table
2013-06-29 18:37:57
jepler_
table.
2013-06-29 18:37:57
cradek
ok, let's table it
2013-06-29 18:38:04
mshaver1
table
2013-06-29 18:38:07
tjtr33
i vote table it
2013-06-29 18:38:10
cmorley
table
2013-06-29 18:38:12
ssi
do we have a way to schedule a formal discusion?
2013-06-29 18:38:16
ssi
or will it just be a behind closed doors thing
2013-06-29 18:38:28
jepler
ssi: mailing lists, irc, forum are all public (just different publics)
2013-06-29 18:38:32
seb_kuzminsky
what doors? it'll be on #linuxcnc-devel or the mailing list
2013-06-29 18:38:32
alex_joni
anything tabled will be up for discussions ntil the next meeting
2013-06-29 18:38:32
Connor
table it I guess.
2013-06-29 18:38:33
mshaver1
ssi: no, but we should
2013-06-29 18:38:33
tjtr33
no , open discussion on the lists and irc channels
2013-06-29 18:38:33
cmorley
discuss in maillist if you like
2013-06-29 18:38:45
ssi
maillist would be the most inclusive
2013-06-29 18:38:55
cradek
mhaberler: please start us
2013-06-29 18:39:00
Connor
but, I think the argument needs to be made FOR moving it.. not why not move it.
2013-06-29 18:39:01
CaptHindsight
who is going to manage all the new commits from especially the glue gun printer crowd?
2013-06-29 18:39:04
mhaberler
ok
2013-06-29 18:39:06
zultron
ssi, this process needs to be open. We should discuss on any and all public forums, put proposals on the agenda, and vote here next time.
2013-06-29 18:39:27
mhaberler
the primary reason to spin out Machinekit is to entice wider usage of HAL standalone, and to get in more talent
2013-06-29 18:39:29
tjtr33
rule 2 ... cats must listen to sheperd
2013-06-29 18:39:57
mhaberler
that suggests it be a focused package, more than it is now
2013-06-29 18:40:08
mhaberler
which is why I suggest this to be a separate tree
2013-06-29 18:40:18
Connor
okay, What is MachineKit? That the beaglebone stuff ?
2013-06-29 18:40:21
cmorley
what is included with machinekit
2013-06-29 18:40:26
mshaver1
I'm in favor of modularity. MachineKit is HAL plus all the realtime support?
2013-06-29 18:40:32
seb_kuzminsky
i agree with the goal of splitting HAL out to its own package, but i think it's a tricky thing to do right
2013-06-29 18:40:42
PetefromTn
Whats machinekit?
2013-06-29 18:40:46
mhaberler
Machinekit would be HAL+RTAPI+NML replacement (zeromq+protobuf)
2013-06-29 18:40:51
tjtr33
mhaberler, i like this idea , do we need JohnK present to really decide?
2013-06-29 18:40:53
ssi
I love it
2013-06-29 18:41:01
mhaberler
he is in favor
2013-06-29 18:41:06
mshaver1
This makes sense.
2013-06-29 18:41:11
seb_kuzminsky
i agree jmk is in favor
2013-06-29 18:41:12
DaveCVI
The idea of promoting HAL more is Ok to me, the details of what htis means is murky to me. I'd like to see a written descrtiption of what gets changed how before voting on this action. I also think that will help "sell" the idea (or not) to the community
2013-06-29 18:41:15
jepler
I think that this is a post-2.6-branch item and would prefer to table.
2013-06-29 18:41:16
cmorley
I support this
2013-06-29 18:41:17
tjtr33
woot! cool
2013-06-29 18:41:17
zultron
JMK actually attempted this once with 'BLOCS'.
2013-06-29 18:41:18
mhaberler
it would also enforce more API discipline
2013-06-29 18:41:21
acondit
Isn't HAL potentially usable without realtime support?
2013-06-29 18:41:24
cradek
I'm open to this idea but I don't know the details well enough to vote confidently on future work
2013-06-29 18:41:27
mhaberler
which has been an issue
2013-06-29 18:41:32
seb_kuzminsky
jepler: i agree it's post-2.6
2013-06-29 18:41:36
jepler
I am also somewhat upset that you are grouping more development goals (nml replacement) into an organization request
2013-06-29 18:41:49
cdsteinkuehler
Does "seperate repos" actually just mean "different projects" or is this related to previous github topic?
2013-06-29 18:42:10
mshaver1
So, what we can vote on is to ask for a more specific plan?
2013-06-29 18:42:12
mhaberler
no, different repos, same project, same build process, separate packages
2013-06-29 18:42:19
seb_kuzminsky
cdsteinkuehler: i think it means "different projects"
2013-06-29 18:42:26
Connor
Yea, table. This is developer stuff that might need more explanation to non developers as in the impacts it might have etc.
2013-06-29 18:42:31
alex_joni
what's the reasoning behind the NML replacement beeing moved out of linuxcnc, and into machineblocks ?
2013-06-29 18:42:43
seb_kuzminsky
lol @machineblocks
2013-06-29 18:42:45
cradek
it looks like we need this proposal to be more concrete
2013-06-29 18:42:49
archivist
there are probably significant number of nml users that should not be ignored
2013-06-29 18:43:08
tjtr33
alex_joni, good q. and says this must be tabled and discussed
2013-06-29 18:43:08
mshaver1
table, but definitely look into this
2013-06-29 18:43:13
PetefromTn
jeez I am out of my depth here....
2013-06-29 18:43:16
mhaberler
it is too early anyway, the time will be past the NML migration; I'm raising it so folks can think about it
2013-06-29 18:43:17
ssi
this might qualify as a non-backward compatible major release feature
2013-06-29 18:43:19
cradek
again it seems like a combination of several things that we need to hash out separately
2013-06-29 18:43:21
jepler
also we probably have to have the community weigh in on the name
2013-06-29 18:43:35
ssi
ie a 3.0.0 thing
2013-06-29 18:43:42
seb_kuzminsky
maybe we van vote on a proposal that "we like modularity and want to work towards more of it", and table the details?
2013-06-29 18:43:48
mhaberler
sure
2013-06-29 18:44:01
cradek
I think that's kind of silly
2013-06-29 18:44:02
tjtr33
i agree to that
2013-06-29 18:44:04
seb_kuzminsky
heh
2013-06-29 18:44:13
Connor
We almost done? I need to go pack up stuff. :)
2013-06-29 18:44:19
ssi
sounds like house resolutions
2013-06-29 18:44:22
mhaberler
but it is an endorsement in principle
2013-06-29 18:44:24
seb_kuzminsky
this is the last agenda item
2013-06-29 18:44:24
tjtr33
i agree to 'we like modularity and...'
2013-06-29 18:44:25
cdsteinkuehler
My time window is closing too...
2013-06-29 18:44:27
cmorley
we want to separate out HAL from cnc control
2013-06-29 18:44:30
ssi
HR13 moves to state that we like good software
2013-06-29 18:44:30
archivist
it is sort of modular already
2013-06-29 18:44:34
zultron
Meta-observation: Even though it appears we won't vote on this one, I'm very happy that awareness has been raised.
2013-06-29 18:44:35
cradek
it's bordering on content-free
2013-06-29 18:44:41
mshaver1
vote or end?
2013-06-29 18:44:44
seb_kuzminsky
zultron: +1
2013-06-29 18:44:50
cdsteinkuehler
Vote to end :)
2013-06-29 18:44:50
jepler
table
2013-06-29 18:44:53
seb_kuzminsky
table
2013-06-29 18:44:56
tjtr33
table
2013-06-29 18:44:58
zultron
mesa
2013-06-29 18:44:59
Connor
table
2013-06-29 18:45:06
archivist
settee
2013-06-29 18:45:08
cradek
ok, that's good enough for me
2013-06-29 18:45:09
DaveCVI
a motion to adjourn is always in order.... <grin>
2013-06-29 18:45:13
mshaver1
spreadsheet
2013-06-29 18:45:13
acondit
table
2013-06-29 18:45:16
cradek
WE ADJOURN and thank you everybody
2013-06-29 18:45:22
jepler
we're getting silly, it's obviously time to stop
2013-06-29 18:45:22
seb_kuzminsky
yay!
2013-06-29 18:45:34
acondit
guby
2013-06-29 18:45:38
seb_kuzminsky
good progress! the new meeting format is generally working well
2013-06-29 18:45:40
tjtr33
:) thx very much guys, this is good
2013-06-29 18:45:46
zultron
Thanks everyone! This was very productive, even though I feel dizzy now.
2013-06-29 18:45:47
PetefromTn
this was great guys thanks for letting me be a part of it. Cheers.
2013-06-29 18:45:55
archivist
!end 201306
2013-06-29 18:46:05
cmorley
Might I suggest that if you add a proposal a link to pertinent info would be good
2013-06-29 18:46:05
seb_kuzminsky
i'll update the wiki & send out emails with outcomes over the weekend
2013-06-29 18:46:13
seb_kuzminsky
bye guys!
2013-06-29 18:46:19
cradek
thanks seb
2013-06-29 18:46:20
mhaberler
cmorley: good point
2013-06-29 18:46:33
cradek
yes great idea
2013-06-29 18:46:41
cmorley
soon enough so research can be done!
2013-06-29 18:46:45
tjtr33
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqiblXFlZuk
2013-06-29 18:46:45
cradek
also we're going to want to freeze the agenda earlier
2013-06-29 18:46:56
cmorley
we a little
2013-06-29 18:47:01
cmorley
yes a little
2013-06-29 18:47:12
cmorley
this was a good start
2013-06-29 18:47:19
micges
cradek: put wiki link on topic
2013-06-29 18:47:19
cmorley
we can talior it
2013-06-29 18:47:28
cradek
I've unlocked Meeting201306 so seb can add his summary etc
2013-06-29 18:47:34
cmorley
we can tweak it a bit for next time
2013-06-29 18:48:05
alex_joni
alex_joni won't attend :(
2013-06-29 18:48:09
cmorley
cradek: I think a heads up (30 seconds) on topic changes would be helpful
2013-06-29 18:48:21
steve_stallings
wiki for next meeting needs to state time and place, plus freeze date for agenda
2013-06-29 18:48:31
tjtr33
how do you make the topic line blink? :)
2013-06-29 18:48:38
cradek
steve_stallings: agreed, please add those things
2013-06-29 18:48:45
steve_stallings
ouch!
2013-06-29 18:49:09
ssi
hahah
2013-06-29 18:49:31
cradek
cmorley: yeah I'm not happy with how I had to retract a few times... by the end I was getting a better feel for it
2013-06-29 18:49:48
cradek
wow, that was almost 2 hours even though I fell like we moved along at a good pace
2013-06-29 18:49:51
cradek
feel
2013-06-29 18:49:55
cmorley
well it WAS the first time :) take a few to get all right
2013-06-29 18:50:05
cradek
I'm off to find some lunch, thanks everyone
2013-06-29 18:50:08
CaptHindsight
I came in 10 minutes late, did I miss any opening monologue or warm up band?
2013-06-29 18:50:14
cmorley
good day guys!
2013-06-29 18:50:47
archivist
bookmark
2013-06-29 18:50:51
tjtr33
plz not, my proposal was not even mentioned. ( and i think we made headway )
2013-06-29 18:51:00
tjtr33
note
2013-06-29 18:51:04
alex_joni
thanks all
2013-06-29 18:51:18
ssi
which proposal?
2013-06-29 18:51:43
archivist
there will be a log with inline agenda at http://meetlog.archivist.info/meeting.php?id=201306 when I debug it a bit too
2013-06-29 18:51:47
tjtr33
the one posted on the wiki page, mha's jog while paused, the ONLY proposal ther
2013-06-29 18:52:13
tjtr33
shame on me for not yelling
2013-06-29 18:53:48
tjtr33
btw: where were these 13 points posted prior to the meeting?
2013-06-29 18:54:21
archivist
should be as he made the page read only at the start
2013-06-29 18:54:32
archivist
or tried to
2013-06-29 18:55:12
tjtr33
which page? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Meeting201306 ?
2013-06-29 18:55:43
archivist
it was prior so http://meetlog.archivist.info/
2013-06-29 18:55:49
ssi
tjtr33: go ahead and add it to next months
2013-06-29 18:56:06
tjtr33
ssi: yep
2013-06-29 18:57:28
ssi
tjtr33: I think it's safe to say that even if it'd come up, it'd gotten tabled
2013-06-29 18:57:42
tjtr33
again, i dont see where did the 13 points get posted prior to the meeting?
2013-06-29 18:58:13
tjtr33
ssi: ok, i'll try and see
2013-06-29 18:58:40
ssi
they weren't explicitly numbered
2013-06-29 18:58:47
ssi
but I think cause yours wasn't up in the bullet list, it got overlooked
2013-06-29 18:59:07
tjtr33
the count 13 was mentioned way before we hit 8 or 9, i'd have to got the logs
2013-06-29 18:59:10
ssi
I certainly didn't see it til I was looking for it
2013-06-29 18:59:18
ssi
yeah I said 13 because I counted asterisks ;)
2013-06-29 19:01:29
tjtr33
huh? just aside effect of a comment? and coincidence, sorry , this the readon behind the universe's infection with paranoia, too many coincidences
2013-06-29 19:01:40
tjtr33
reason
2013-06-29 19:02:17
ssi
I don't follow
2013-06-29 19:02:35
ssi
there was a list of meta-items, and a list of agenda items
2013-06-29 19:02:40
ssi
your line wasn't in either
2013-06-29 19:02:50
tjtr33
the number 13 was mentioned before the topic ( with explict numbers) said 8
2013-06-29 19:03:08
ssi
yes, that was me
2013-06-29 19:03:20
andypugh
Is this logged somewhere?
2013-06-29 19:03:22
ssi
I made an offhand comment about there being 13 topics and 15 minutes per is 3 hours 15 minutes
2013-06-29 19:03:37
tjtr33
good q andy, i need the wayback machine
2013-06-29 19:04:43
mpictor
andypugh: bookmark
2013-06-29 19:04:54
mpictor
bookmark
2013-06-29 19:04:55
tjtr33
ssi i get it, it was offhand AND was coincidently correct at the end
2013-06-29 19:05:38
tjtr33
crap try to search for 13 when every line begins 2013
2013-06-29 19:05:57
ssi
not that coincidently, there were six asterisks under "meta" and seven under "agenda"
2013-06-29 19:06:03
ssi
and six plus seven is 13 by my count :)
2013-06-29 19:06:08
archivist
a delimited log with agenda at top http://meetlog.archivist.info/meeting.php?id=201306
2013-06-29 19:06:52
ssi
they don't call you archivist for nothin, huh? :D
2013-06-29 19:07:01
archivist
:)
2013-06-29 19:07:04
ssi
and by "they" I guess i mean "you"
2013-06-29 19:07:04
ssi
hahah
2013-06-29 19:07:30
tjtr33
ok, my question really is not count, it is where were the discussion point pre-posted
2013-06-29 19:07:32
tjtr33
( they were not thought of in the mSecs between end of vote and new topic appearing )
2013-06-29 19:07:51
tjtr33
and the guidelines say to pre-publish the points
2013-06-29 19:08:20
archivist
I need to workout how freenode tends the topic I had to hand edit the channel info in the table
2013-06-29 19:08:53
archivist
more experiments before next time needed
2013-06-29 19:09:28
archivist
I think moderator has to be a bit more bot aware
2013-06-29 19:09:40
archivist
aware/trained
2013-06-29 19:12:27
archivist
ssi, collecting books started it then being volunteer archivist at a steam museum
2013-06-29 19:13:54
ssi
gotcha
2013-06-29 19:14:12
ssi
I hate having to cut square holes!
2013-06-29 19:14:39
archivist
file the corners
2013-06-29 19:14:57
archivist
punch/broach
2013-06-29 19:15:05
Skullworks
Rotory Broach
2013-06-29 19:15:20
ssi
eh it's for an IEC socket, I'll probably file the corners
2013-06-29 19:15:24
ssi
but then I have to do a DB25
2013-06-29 19:15:26
ssi
and that's way worse
2013-06-29 19:15:31
ssi
I can't fit this thing on the mill
2013-06-29 19:15:39
ssi
I dunno why I'm talking about it in this channel hahaah
2013-06-29 19:15:48
archivist
nah thats just a small endmill
2013-06-29 19:16:02
ssi
if I could fit it on the mill, it'd be a small endmill
2013-06-29 19:16:09
Skullworks
wrench operated panel punch.
2013-06-29 19:16:17
ssi
they're expensive as crap for DB
2013-06-29 19:16:27
Skullworks
make one...
2013-06-29 19:16:33
ssi
not sure I have those skills!
2013-06-29 19:16:38
ssi
but that's an interesting idea
2013-06-29 19:18:08
archivist
the nice thing about the !end bot command means http://meetlog.archivist.info/meeting.php?id=201306 is fixed :)
2013-06-29 19:18:17
ssi
excellent
2013-06-29 19:18:27
Skullworks
put 2 pins in the female side to line up with the 4-40 standoff holes and everything will fit fine.
2013-06-29 19:18:44
ssi
Skullworks: I don't follow
2013-06-29 19:20:35
Skullworks
make a drill guide plate to drill the 2 holes for the standoffs, then the female part of the punch has 2 pins that fit in those holes - thi aligns the DB cutout to the mounting holes.
2013-06-29 19:21:00
ssi
aha
2013-06-29 19:21:01
ssi
makes sense
2013-06-29 19:21:09
ssi
but I'd need to be able to heat treat to do that I think
2013-06-29 19:21:11
tjtr33
what page is spoke on here? "2013-06-29 16:57:47 cradek I have frozen the agenda page now"
2013-06-29 19:21:40
Skullworks
a top guide plate with a female cutout sits on those pins to align the punch.
2013-06-29 19:22:20
zultron
tjtr33, sorry your question didn't get raised. Wonder if it's because it wasn't bulleted? (I admit my eyes are trained that way, too.)
2013-06-29 19:22:26
Skullworks
mild steel would work for AL 3/32" thick or less.
2013-06-29 19:22:33
zultron
Add it here for next time: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Meeting201307
2013-06-29 19:22:35
ssi
this is 18ga steel
2013-06-29 19:22:46
tjtr33
zultron: what page is spoken of here? "2013-06-29 16:57:47 cradek I have frozen the agenda page now
2013-06-29 19:23:01
zultron
He meant this:
2013-06-29 19:23:02
zultron
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Meeting201306
2013-06-29 19:23:22
zultron
Also possible he didn't refresh the page after you put in your item.
2013-06-29 19:23:54
zultron
I stuck the meeting page list at the end of this one: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?MeetingsOnIRC
2013-06-29 19:24:39
Skullworks
would prolly work ok for a few uses - buy some Kasenite (not sure on spelling of name) and you can case harden the mild steel as hard as tool steel.
2013-06-29 19:24:48
zultron
(Note that the Meeting201306 page now says "This page is read-only" at the bottom)
2013-06-29 19:24:56
tjtr33
zultron: got it, now it makes sense, the page i thought dint mean squat cuz my point was overlooked, acutally contains the stuff the wasnt overlooked, of course !
2013-06-29 19:25:15
zultron
Yes, your point really was overlooked.
2013-06-29 19:25:47
tjtr33
np, i was concerened with the prescience of the enumerated points
2013-06-29 19:26:05
tjtr33
thx all and good day
2013-06-29 19:26:11
zultron
See you!
2013-06-29 19:26:40
Skullworks
any way to find out status of a project?
2013-06-29 19:29:54
cradek
oh, darnit, sorry
2013-06-29 19:47:20
PetefromTn
ssi: Why don't you just draw it out, drill some strategically placed holes and use a die grinder or dremel.
2013-06-29 19:48:20
Skullworks
Ever consider doing that on a running server that you can't power off?
2013-06-29 19:48:35
ssi
PetefromTn: I got it under control
2013-06-29 19:48:52
ssi
I have this fancy drill-powered nibbler that I bought at the last airshow I went to :)
2013-06-29 19:48:53
PetefromTn
ssi: Glad to hear it LOL.
2013-06-29 19:49:02
cradek
I suggest moving conversation back to #linuxcnc
2013-06-29 19:49:07
ssi
yeah, I agree
2013-06-29 19:49:18
cradek
I think it'd be bad if we ended up with a third general discussion channel for no reason
2013-06-29 19:49:21
archivist
I changed a psu fan in a 486 while it was running does that count
2013-06-29 19:49:27
PetefromTn
Nibblers are great the nuibbles are sharp bastards that get everywhere.
2013-06-29 19:49:49
Skullworks
nifty!
2013-06-29 19:50:45
Skullworks
I work in Radio - most things I work on have to be done under power.
2013-06-29 20:03:07
Tom_itx
cradek, maybe change the channel to invite only?
2013-06-29 20:03:32
Tom_itx
easy enough to get in since there are 2 other channels
2013-06-29 20:03:56
Tom_itx
and if you don't adhere to the topic you could be asked to be silenced or leave
2013-06-29 20:04:54
Tom_itx
linuxcnc ops have never been known to crack the whip
2013-06-29 20:06:12
cradek
looks like I could kick everyone, or make it so nobody can talk
2013-06-29 20:06:29
cradek
it's probably not important to do either of those, though
2013-06-29 20:07:08
Tom_itx
no
2013-06-29 20:07:26
Tom_itx
but if you want a channel to stay on topic there are options
2013-06-29 20:08:00
archivist
only matters during a meeting
2013-06-29 20:08:13
Tom_itx
then what happens in the off time?
2013-06-29 20:08:21
cradek
yeah my only preference the rest of the month is to not have a third channel to watch
2013-06-29 20:08:25
archivist
matter not a lot
2013-06-29 20:08:38
Tom_itx
is why i suggested invite
2013-06-29 20:08:46
Tom_itx
so ppl don't get used to using it for chit chat
2013-06-29 20:09:08
Tom_itx
or open it up during meeting times
2013-06-29 20:09:17
Tom_itx
and close it to invite during the rest
2013-06-29 21:09:10
mpictor
just had a thought... some don't want to use github due to control and reliability concerns, so why not use github *and* git.linuxcnc.org?
2013-06-29 21:11:21
mpictor
on the git.linuxcnc.org repo, have a cron job periodically run 'git pull linuxcnc-github'
2013-06-29 21:11:42
mpictor
that would ensure that they stayed in sync in the event of a problem
2013-06-29 21:55:55
CaptHindsight
I agree with cradek, now there's a third channel with discussions :(
2013-06-29 21:56:49
Tom_itx
so open it up just prior to meets
2013-06-29 21:56:54
Tom_itx
problem solved
2013-06-29 21:57:38
Tom_itx
-v the rest of the time or such
2013-06-29 21:59:49
Tom_itx
and by all means registered nicks only
2013-06-29 22:54:02
traces
join #linuxcnc
2013-06-30 04:01:37
PetefromTn
http://s150.photobucket.com/user/matospeter/media/Cincinatti%20Arrow%20500%20Retrofit/photo_zpsd69e5899.jpg.html?sort=6&o=0
2013-07-01 17:23:23
cradek
seb_kuzminsky: should I lock the 201306 page now that it represents immutable history?
2013-07-01 17:57:57
cradek
I think the answer is yes. I will do that unless/until someone objects.
2013-07-01 18:03:08
archivist
I thought you did that just before the meeting :)
2013-07-01 18:58:32
cradek
I unlocked it so seb would be able to put the results there
2013-07-01 19:03:35
seb_kuzminsky
cradek: thanks for doing those things - seems like that should be part of the seceretary's job, not the moderator's
2013-07-01 19:05:03
cradek
no problem. I don't feel strongly about who should do what.
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