#linuxcnc-meet Log v0.1

logs Catalogue

days :1372
Table logs
date_time
user
message
2013-07-27 16:00:37
archivist
!start 201307 July meeting log events started
2013-07-27 16:58:40
cradek
good morning
2013-07-27 16:58:42
archivist
!start 201307 July meeting agenda logging started
2013-07-27 16:59:04
seb_kuzminsky
good morning :-)
2013-07-27 16:59:04
archivist
afternoon
2013-07-27 16:59:07
seb_kuzminsky
heh
2013-07-27 16:59:53
mhaberler
hi folks
2013-07-27 17:00:05
jthornton
hi
2013-07-27 17:00:26
cradek
I texted jmk
2013-07-27 17:00:46
cradek
(he's #2)
2013-07-27 17:00:54
cradek
ok it's time; let's start
2013-07-27 17:00:55
seb_kuzminsky
"you're being truant! this will reflect badly on your quarterly performance review"
2013-07-27 17:01:09
zultron
'morning
2013-07-27 17:01:18
mhaberler
fine. Meeting chair today is?
2013-07-27 17:01:23
seb_kuzminsky
oh, he's got a topic on the agenda, i see
2013-07-27 17:01:29
seb_kuzminsky
i volunteer to be secretary again
2013-07-27 17:01:32
cradek
I can do it again
2013-07-27 17:01:42
seb_kuzminsky
great
2013-07-27 17:02:01
mhaberler
I suggest we divide the chores - jthornton?
2013-07-27 17:02:17
cradek
is imcmahon here?
2013-07-27 17:02:19
jthornton
this is my first meeting so I'm green
2013-07-27 17:02:30
cradek
does anyone know who that is?
2013-07-27 17:02:31
seb_kuzminsky
it's funny that the first two topics dont have their champion present
2013-07-27 17:02:32
mhaberler
that is a very good precondition
2013-07-27 17:02:36
seb_kuzminsky
oops, just one of the first two
2013-07-27 17:02:57
seb_kuzminsky
hi jmk!
2013-07-27 17:03:05
jmk-mcfaul_
hi
2013-07-27 17:03:13
zultron
ssi, I just pinged him.
2013-07-27 17:03:22
mhaberler
hi jmk!
2013-07-27 17:03:23
cradek
ah thanks, ssi is in #linuxcnc-devel
2013-07-27 17:03:29
seb_kuzminsky
should we table imcmahon's item?
2013-07-27 17:03:41
cradek
let's give him a minute to join
2013-07-27 17:03:54
zultron
Or come back after he's on.
2013-07-27 17:04:00
andypugh
Does the idea even work when the "2" is almost the name of the project?
2013-07-27 17:04:25
cradek
zultron is right - should we move to #2 and come back to #1 later if he appears?
2013-07-27 17:04:33
zultron
Yes
2013-07-27 17:04:34
seb_kuzminsky
sure
2013-07-27 17:04:37
jmk-mcfaul_
ok
2013-07-27 17:04:56
cradek
jmk-mcfaul_: please start us
2013-07-27 17:05:36
jmk-mcfaul_
these meetings were proposed to avoid the impression that if the "in crowd" doesn't want to do something, it just gets ignored
2013-07-27 17:05:58
jmk-mcfaul_
if tabling an agenda item makes it disappear, that isn't much different
2013-07-27 17:06:24
seb_kuzminsky
we table things if we don't reach a decision
2013-07-27 17:06:35
jmk-mcfaul_
to me, tabling an item carries an implied promise that it WILL be addressed in the future
2013-07-27 17:06:42
mhaberler
I agree.
2013-07-27 17:06:43
seb_kuzminsky
the intent is that the people who care about that thing will bring it up in discussion before the next meeting
2013-07-27 17:06:57
cradek
the sponsor can put the item on next month's agenda, even during the current meeting, if he's not satisfied with the tabling and hopes to make progress in the next month and then talk about it again
2013-07-27 17:07:02
zultron
a counter-arg is that the proposal's owner may untable the next month.
2013-07-27 17:07:03
seb_kuzminsky
and then add it again if needed (if the discussion doesn't resolve it)
2013-07-27 17:07:15
jthornton
would it not be the responsibility of the author to add it to the next meeting?
2013-07-27 17:07:21
seb_kuzminsky
jthornton: i think so
2013-07-27 17:07:27
cradek
jthornton: that is what I propose too
2013-07-27 17:07:43
jmk-mcfaul_
so basically, we are talking about the "default" behavior
2013-07-27 17:07:47
seb_kuzminsky
yeah
2013-07-27 17:07:56
zultron
(this is the opposite of my stand talking with cradek last week)
2013-07-27 17:08:17
zultron
There's a communication issue here though:
2013-07-27 17:08:18
steve_stallings
compromise... make the default that the first time a item is tabled it automatically goes on the agenda for only the next meeting, thereafter it has to be submitted again
2013-07-27 17:08:22
cradek
I like the idea that a proposal needs a sponsor to keep driving it forward.
2013-07-27 17:08:23
seb_kuzminsky
zultron: you're a flip-flopper
2013-07-27 17:08:28
jmk-mcfaul_
I propose that the default is "an item stays on the agenda until explicitly removed", while others are proposing "an item disappears unless its advocate takes continued action to keep it active"
2013-07-27 17:08:28
skunkworks
it puts some of the responsibility on the author.. (which I agree with..)
2013-07-27 17:08:47
cradek
I agree with jmk's framing
2013-07-27 17:08:56
jthornton
I agree the sponsor should drive the proposal
2013-07-27 17:09:04
zultron
if we do end up making it the author's responsibility, it should be very clear that just because an issue was tabled doesn't mean that it's not welcome next time, and persistence will be rewarded.
2013-07-27 17:09:14
jthornton
yes
2013-07-27 17:09:15
cradek
I agree with zultron
2013-07-27 17:09:17
seb_kuzminsky
yes
2013-07-27 17:09:43
seb_kuzminsky
i could add a blurp to MeetingsOnIRC to that effect
2013-07-27 17:09:51
seb_kuzminsky
what do you think of that idea jmk?
2013-07-27 17:10:00
andypugh
I think that defaulting to re-appear automatically is probably best, but a decision is made each time to re-table or to explicitly remove.
2013-07-27 17:10:01
cradek
to me tabling only means "not enough information or consensus to effectively decide this yet"
2013-07-27 17:10:06
steve_stallings
should people other than the original proposer be allowed to put the tabled item back on the next meeting agenda?
2013-07-27 17:10:07
jmk-mcfaul_
I'm clearly in the minority here
2013-07-27 17:10:19
skunkworks
steve_stallings: sure
2013-07-27 17:10:20
cradek
steve_stallings: IMO yes, if they want to work on making it progress
2013-07-27 17:10:21
zultron
andypugh's idea sounds good too.
2013-07-27 17:10:22
jmk-mcfaul_
cradek, "yet" is the key word.
2013-07-27 17:10:25
archivist
I prefer option 2 else something can drag on forever
2013-07-27 17:10:47
jmk-mcfaul_
keep in mind that anyone can put anything on the agenda
2013-07-27 17:10:54
cradek
the perverse outcome we avoid by behavior #2 is the item lives on even though nobody wants to work on it
2013-07-27 17:11:07
jmk-mcfaul_
so "tabling" a proposal really doesn't mean anything'
2013-07-27 17:11:15
andypugh
Effectively "Tabling" to me actually means moving to the next months agenda.
2013-07-27 17:11:26
jmk-mcfaul_
andypugh, right
2013-07-27 17:11:36
seb_kuzminsky
not quite, to me
2013-07-27 17:11:52
jmk-mcfaul_
if we want it gone from the agenda, because it is there but has no advocate, then vote it off
2013-07-27 17:11:53
seb_kuzminsky
to me it means "the person who wants this needs to drive the issue forward more before we can decide"
2013-07-27 17:11:59
cradek
I don't know what it means - feels like we're trying to define that
2013-07-27 17:12:17
seb_kuzminsky
that may or may not happen, but it's up to the person who wants the decision to do the leg-work of building consensus and understanding in the community
2013-07-27 17:12:24
andypugh
I have no preference either way, but we do need to be clear what we mean.
2013-07-27 17:12:42
cradek
maybe we should just vote NO in the "not enough information or consensus to affirmatively decide this" situation
2013-07-27 17:12:53
cradek
maybe "tabling" is just obfuscation
2013-07-27 17:12:56
jmk-mcfaul_
I should have done my homework before now, but stand by while I read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_%28parliamentary_procedure%29
2013-07-27 17:12:57
seb_kuzminsky
cradek: i think that's a bad idea
2013-07-27 17:13:23
seb_kuzminsky
it sends the message that we decided not to do that thing, when really we just couldnt come to a decision yet
2013-07-27 17:13:24
mhaberler
tabling means 'remains undecided'
2013-07-27 17:13:25
zultron
Voting 'no' sounds final.
2013-07-27 17:13:31
DaveB
if you take a roberts rules approch then you differentiate between "table" and "postpone" - table goes away now and it takes an explicit action to bring back to active; postpone is to a definite time (usually) - that puts an item in old bix for the next mtg
2013-07-27 17:13:52
zultron
I like that.
2013-07-27 17:13:57
seb_kuzminsky
DaveB: that matches my understanding of "table"
2013-07-27 17:14:05
andypugh
Aha, once again a case where two nations are divided by a common languuage. It seems that US and UK usage are polar oppsites.
2013-07-27 17:14:07
cradek
ok, bad idea, I like the idea of "remains undecided" as mhaberler says
2013-07-27 17:14:16
jthornton
so an item could be tabled or postponed
2013-07-27 17:14:36
mhaberler
what does that mean for the next iteration?
2013-07-27 17:14:38
cradek
sigh, four states is not better than three
2013-07-27 17:15:01
zultron
time check: 2 minutes 'til we table this issue
2013-07-27 17:15:04
seb_kuzminsky
yes let's keep it as simple and un-procedural as possible
2013-07-27 17:15:05
cradek
I feel like we shouldn't vote on this proposal if we don't define what tabling is
2013-07-27 17:15:07
jmk-mcfaul_
I was unaware of the dual meaning of "tabled" till just now
2013-07-27 17:15:30
jmk-mcfaul_
at this point I think I'd rather delete the "tabled" state and call it postponed
2013-07-27 17:15:31
seb_kuzminsky
do we agree that issues need champions?
2013-07-27 17:15:40
jthornton
yes
2013-07-27 17:15:41
cradek
yes
2013-07-27 17:15:43
seb_kuzminsky
and the champions do the work of driving consensus?
2013-07-27 17:15:44
DaveB
Or you copuld be a tad less formal and just have an old biz section in the agenda - if not decicion and you want to keep topic alive, make motion to "move to old biz for next mtg"
2013-07-27 17:15:45
zultron
yes
2013-07-27 17:15:47
jmk-mcfaul_
but I still think that the issue should remain on the agenda till resolved'
2013-07-27 17:15:51
jthornton
yes
2013-07-27 17:15:59
mhaberler
assume Jan1 2014 meeting, one postponed item: is that up for a vote again? and how ist that different in treatment from 'tabled' - meaning 'on list but not up for decision'?
2013-07-27 17:16:05
zultron
what if the champion disappears?
2013-07-27 17:16:09
cradek
yes
2013-07-27 17:16:26
cradek
zultron: if nobody is doing the work of driving consensus, the proposal doesn't happen
2013-07-27 17:16:30
seb_kuzminsky
if we all agree on the champion's importance and role, the default behavior seems less important
2013-07-27 17:16:36
mhaberler
in that scenario 'tabled' equals 'shot down'
2013-07-27 17:16:45
jmk-mcfaul_
what mhaberler says
2013-07-27 17:16:45
steve_stallings
back to compromise offering, a "postponed" item could disappear after not being decided for N number of tries
2013-07-27 17:16:58
mhaberler
with a record of the fact
2013-07-27 17:17:03
jmk-mcfaul_
if we want to make an item disappear, we should have the courage to explicitly do so
2013-07-27 17:17:07
seb_kuzminsky
i like "the champion needs to re-add it if they want it still", because it moves the work from "the meeting has to decide to remove the item if the champion goes away" to "the champion has to re-add it if they still want it"
2013-07-27 17:17:09
cradek
I simply don't see what is keeping someone from editing next month's agenda
2013-07-27 17:17:13
DaveB
Diff from tabled is vocabulary mostly- Table has specific meaning in formal processes - so I tend to think that when I see the term- too much time in standards groups over the years ;-(
2013-07-27 17:17:18
andypugh
I think each meeting we need to consider the postponed items, and make a decision either to re-postpone (typicaly at the "champion's" behest, or to decide to drop it from the agenda (which is like a "no" but gentler)
2013-07-27 17:17:27
cradek
we CAN'T just make something disappear because the agenda is open
2013-07-27 17:17:47
mhaberler
I agree with jmk. It is unwise do adopt the style of killing an effort by bloodless bureaucratic warfare.
2013-07-27 17:18:03
cradek
ugh that's unnecessarily hyperbolic
2013-07-27 17:18:15
cradek
please assume good faith
2013-07-27 17:18:16
mhaberler
but it did sound great!
2013-07-27 17:18:18
jmk-mcfaul_
cradek, I know an advocate can keep putting things on the agenda - this isn't about what is possible
2013-07-27 17:18:19
archivist
dont want edit wars on the wiki either
2013-07-27 17:18:25
jmk-mcfaul_
it is about how things are percieved
2013-07-27 17:18:36
mhaberler
yes
2013-07-27 17:18:39
zultron
jmk-mcfaul_, yes.
2013-07-27 17:18:40
mhaberler
that is a key aspect
2013-07-27 17:19:02
mhaberler
and the motive to start these meetings was because the perception was not good
2013-07-27 17:19:05
andypugh
archivist: That sounds like a problem to confront if it occurs, rather than in fear of it occurring.
2013-07-27 17:19:27
archivist
true
2013-07-27 17:19:28
steve_stallings
if inclusiveness is really our goal, we need to get this meetings outcome in front of people more aggressively
2013-07-27 17:19:32
zultron
No answer, being ignored, dropping things off agendas can easily be perceived as "NO".
2013-07-27 17:19:38
cradek
I think it's understood that we don't delete others' agenda items, right?
2013-07-27 17:19:53
jthornton
yes
2013-07-27 17:19:55
cradek
that means we don't have edit wars
2013-07-27 17:20:00
cradek
so nonproblem
2013-07-27 17:20:16
seb_kuzminsky
tabled doesnt mean dropped, it means 'please talk to us clearly and explain what you want and convince us'
2013-07-27 17:20:18
jmk-mcfaul_
oh, but we do delete others peoples agenda items (at least that is what you are proposing)
2013-07-27 17:20:27
cradek
we're way over time. jmk can you add to next month's agenda and we'll discuss more on the lists?
2013-07-27 17:20:28
zultron
Let's postpone this discussion. (Seriously)
2013-07-27 17:20:31
mhaberler
I think they should get off the agenda if there was a decision, and with an explanation/log (at least if negative)
2013-07-27 17:20:34
jmk-mcfaul_
after every meeting, every agenda item is deleted
2013-07-27 17:20:52
mhaberler
decided or not?
2013-07-27 17:21:00
zultron
postpone.
2013-07-27 17:21:02
cradek
IMO that's a big stretch of "delete"
2013-07-27 17:21:17
memleak
Hi.
2013-07-27 17:21:19
andypugh
It's a new blank page, not an active deletion.
2013-07-27 17:21:20
zultron
Move the discussion to the lists.
2013-07-27 17:21:30
cradek
I don't think we should vote on this today
2013-07-27 17:21:36
jmk-mcfaul_
it was there before the meeting, was not explicitly rejected in the meeting, but is gone after. how is that not a delete?
2013-07-27 17:21:48
mhaberler
good point
2013-07-27 17:21:58
cradek
it was discussed at the meeting. that's the promise you get by putting something on the meeting's agenda
2013-07-27 17:22:16
mhaberler
I dont think this is enough to delete it
2013-07-27 17:22:19
DaveB
old biz and new biz section for th eagenda make it clear that old stuff will come back and is not forgoten and new things go into new - no "what does a blank" page mean issues then
2013-07-27 17:22:32
mhaberler
that is normal procedure, yes
2013-07-27 17:22:58
seb_kuzminsky
if we do it that way, how do things get removed from the old biz section if the champion doesn't ... champion the cause?
2013-07-27 17:23:00
archivist
and only bring across postponed items
2013-07-27 17:23:11
seb_kuzminsky
we have a yes/no/table/remove vote?
2013-07-27 17:23:34
DaveB
someon can make a motion to remove XYZ from old biz for whatever reason is appropriate
2013-07-27 17:23:40
jmk-mcfaul_
seb_kuzminsky, at every meeting, we should address every item. That could include saying "hey, it looks like nobody cares about this, i propose we remove it"
2013-07-27 17:23:54
steve_stallings
yes
2013-07-27 17:23:58
seb_kuzminsky
hmm, ok
2013-07-27 17:24:00
cradek
I spelled out my objections to that on the list. an advocate might be on vacation one month.
2013-07-27 17:24:03
elson
Yes.
2013-07-27 17:24:10
jmk-mcfaul_
that way the decision to remove is explicit
2013-07-27 17:24:17
mhaberler
I think the key question is how to gauge champion interest
2013-07-27 17:24:23
andypugh
cradek: They can always bring it back in that case.
2013-07-27 17:24:26
cradek
that means his item would get voted NO just because he doesn't appear that one time
2013-07-27 17:24:32
seb_kuzminsky
voting to remove is not the same as voting no on the item, it just means "don't auto-propagate this item to next month's old-biz section"?
2013-07-27 17:24:44
jmk-mcfaul_
cradek, so, you are willing to protect the item when he is on vacation, but you want to delete it by default?
2013-07-27 17:24:46
cradek
andypugh: then we're saying a NO vote isn't final either?
2013-07-27 17:25:01
cradek
jmk-mcfaul_: I disagree with your usage of delete, so I can't answer that question
2013-07-27 17:25:16
andypugh
It's not a "no" it's a "no longer being considered"
2013-07-27 17:25:17
jmk-mcfaul_
cradek, as long as anyone can put anything on the agenda, then a NO vote isn't really final either
2013-07-27 17:25:23
jthornton
seems clear to me if an item can not be resolved the head of the meeting ask the author to add that item to next month
2013-07-27 17:25:45
seb_kuzminsky
jthornton: that should be up to the author/champion
2013-07-27 17:25:48
cradek
in that case, then how many kinds of no votes do we need? I feel like this is bordering on silly.
2013-07-27 17:25:51
jthornton
exactly
2013-07-27 17:26:01
skunkworks
or can add it back when enough information is gathered to advance the case
2013-07-27 17:26:05
jmk-mcfaul_
today we have two kinds of no votes
2013-07-27 17:26:08
jmk-mcfaul_
NO means no
2013-07-27 17:26:13
andypugh
"NO" is more for ideas such as "I propose that we merge our codebase with Minecraft to incorporate 3D design"
2013-07-27 17:26:14
jmk-mcfaul_
table means remove from agenda
2013-07-27 17:26:42
cradek
table means stop talking about it at this month's meeting, nothing more
2013-07-27 17:26:54
jthornton
yes
2013-07-27 17:26:55
cradek
what happens at the next meeting depends on the next meeting's agenda
2013-07-27 17:27:00
mhaberler
procedural issues should not be relegated to issue champions, rather by rules the chair/meeting follows, and they need to be spelled out
2013-07-27 17:27:27
seb_kuzminsky
mhaberler: yes, we're currently trying to agree on the procedure that we're spelling out
2013-07-27 17:27:43
jthornton
perhaps more research needs to be done on this item
2013-07-27 17:27:46
cradek
again, I simply don't see what is keeping someone from editing next month's agenda
2013-07-27 17:27:59
jmk-mcfaul_
well, the procedure most of the group favors puts the burden of keeping a proposal active squarely on the proposer
2013-07-27 17:28:02
seb_kuzminsky
but we just agreed (i think) that issue champions drive individual issues in the agenda
2013-07-27 17:28:06
steve_stallings
being intimidated by the "in crowd"
2013-07-27 17:28:20
seb_kuzminsky
jmk-mcfaul_: that sounds like a feature to me :-)
2013-07-27 17:28:25
andypugh
This is a bit of a catch-22 here. We have an issue that probably needs to be "tabled" but we can't do that until we decide what that means. A recursive agenda!
2013-07-27 17:28:29
jmk-mcfaul_
someone new to the group or less outspoken might feel intimidated by that
2013-07-27 17:28:36
cradek
yes I also think that's a feature
2013-07-27 17:28:45
DaveB
UH, I sense a tar pit looming... the discussion of how to handle combos or procedural rules can go a long time.... if we want a set of rule to use, then I'd suggest Robert's as they ahve been worked on my many for many years... if we want to be more informal, then do what we tink is best as things come up. But I'd rather not reinvent procedure from sratch - Back to lurking now
2013-07-27 17:28:52
mhaberler
I do not think so, it is in fact a problem
2013-07-27 17:29:08
seb_kuzminsky
jmk-mcfaul_: i think i see your point
2013-07-27 17:29:30
cradek
I agree the point is valid
2013-07-27 17:29:46
seb_kuzminsky
you're worried that if someone proposes something that we don't reach consensus on, they'll feel too intimidated to keep talking about it on the mailing lists and add it again next month?
2013-07-27 17:29:54
jmk-mcfaul_
potentially
2013-07-27 17:30:06
jmk-mcfaul_
we heard pretty much exactly that complaint in wichita
2013-07-27 17:30:16
zultron
Yes, that was me. ;(
2013-07-27 17:30:17
jmk-mcfaul_
(not in regard to meetings of course)
2013-07-27 17:30:41
seb_kuzminsky
zultron: not just you :-(
2013-07-27 17:30:55
mhaberler
I do have several reports by folks hesitation expressing themselves even on the list
2013-07-27 17:31:15
mhaberler
and I do take these people serious
2013-07-27 17:31:20
seb_kuzminsky
if people are too timid to post to the list, i don't know how to help them :-/
2013-07-27 17:31:28
jmk-mcfaul_
the mechanics are not what I'm interested in - the perception is. it now seems that at least a few more people get where I'm coming from. given that, I'm willing to "table" this till next month, and we can try to come up with a way to handle the mechanics
2013-07-27 17:31:39
zultron
It's easy for a newcomer to equate lack of interest or decisiveness with a NO.
2013-07-27 17:31:40
andypugh
How about we move to a vote on the item as originally stated?
2013-07-27 17:31:53
mhaberler
this isnt necessarily about lists, it is about style too
2013-07-27 17:31:58
cradek
jmk-mcfaul_: do you want a vote, or do you want to put it on next month's agenda?
2013-07-27 17:32:42
jmk-mcfaul_
next months agenda. after reading that "tabled" means different things in different countries, I think I want to change the proposal to eliminate that word, maybe use postpone instead
2013-07-27 17:33:00
cradek
that's a good idea, I also had no idea about the language problem
2013-07-27 17:33:09
cradek
ok let's move on
2013-07-27 17:33:12
steve_stallings
yes
2013-07-27 17:33:16
jmk-mcfaul_
yes
2013-07-27 17:33:28
mhaberler
what is the result of this agenda item?
2013-07-27 17:33:32
seb_kuzminsky
ok, but can we keep talking about this on the list?
2013-07-27 17:33:36
steve_stallings
yes
2013-07-27 17:33:37
seb_kuzminsky
mhaberler: postpone
2013-07-27 17:33:44
zultron
postpone; discuss on list
2013-07-27 17:33:50
mhaberler
ok
2013-07-27 17:33:52
elson
yes
2013-07-27 17:33:56
jmk-mcfaul_
and generate a revised proposal for next month
2013-07-27 17:34:00
zultron
3. Documents: Remove text from untranslated documents and leave a note about how to update the file when it is translated. Currently untranslated documents are not referenced in the PDF or HTML documents. All references point to the English files unless a translated file is present. Untranslated documents are not up to date and create extra work for anyone editing the documents. (jthornton)
2013-07-27 17:34:02
cradek
jthornton: please start us
2013-07-27 17:34:25
andypugh
Given that we don't know wjat we mean by "postpone" then maybe it should be minuted as "withdrawn by proposer for re-submission" :-)
2013-07-27 17:34:36
jmk-mcfaul_
works for me
2013-07-27 17:34:36
jthornton
I'd like to remove all the untranslated text from the spanish docs and leave a note explaining where to get a current copy to translate
2013-07-27 17:35:02
seb_kuzminsky
our translations are a mess and i welcome discussion on how to fix it, but i'm not sure that's the way
2013-07-27 17:35:08
elson
maybe the other lang. docs should be viewable, and have a link to the English doc, and a note that translations would be welcome.
2013-07-27 17:35:09
jthornton
I actually think the Polish and German docs could be removed until someone steps up to the plate to translate them
2013-07-27 17:35:18
andypugh
Yes, having english language present in something published as a translation feels wrong.
2013-07-27 17:35:29
jthornton
and misleading
2013-07-27 17:35:37
steve_stallings
will this mean that incremental submissions are not possible, and only a complete translation is accepted
2013-07-27 17:35:48
cradek
is it true that some of the files are still fully english, even though they have names like _es...?
2013-07-27 17:35:54
seb_kuzminsky
cradek: yes
2013-07-27 17:35:57
jthornton
yes
2013-07-27 17:36:08
jmk-mcfaul_
well, that is less than good
2013-07-27 17:36:17
jthornton
most of the es files are english and not up to date with the english docs
2013-07-27 17:36:21
cradek
yeah that seems really bad, since a new translator may start from an old version
2013-07-27 17:36:22
seb_kuzminsky
ideally i'd like a system like gettext for our docs, where individual strings can be translated
2013-07-27 17:36:25
jmk-mcfaul_
I favor a plan that supports incremental translation though
2013-07-27 17:36:37
andypugh
I can see the reasoning that they are acting as a placeholder and safe repository for any translation that does happen.
2013-07-27 17:36:46
jthornton
each chapter can be translated at a time
2013-07-27 17:36:48
seb_kuzminsky
po4a promises string-wise incremental translation, but i haven't tried it
2013-07-27 17:36:51
cradek
jepler tried weblate and we got some results from that in 2.5
2013-07-27 17:37:01
jthornton
I've got the file size of most chapters small
2013-07-27 17:37:07
seb_kuzminsky
weblate translates gettext strings, not our docs
2013-07-27 17:37:16
cradek
oh right
2013-07-27 17:37:40
cradek
but I understand po4a+weblate is a possible answer
2013-07-27 17:37:42
cradek
?
2013-07-27 17:37:52
seb_kuzminsky
i think it might be, but i haven't looked closely at it
2013-07-27 17:38:18
cradek
is jthornton's idea (remove the outdated english from those files) better than doing nothing in the short term?
2013-07-27 17:38:49
jthornton
when I talk to people on the forum about translations the all tell me that google translate and others can not translate technical docs
2013-07-27 17:38:50
andypugh
It will at least have people looking at correct docs they can't read rather than out of date docs that they can't read
2013-07-27 17:38:59
archivist
outdated spanish?
2013-07-27 17:39:06
jmk-mcfaul_
andypugh, well put
2013-07-27 17:39:12
jthornton
all the people read the current English docs
2013-07-27 17:39:34
seb_kuzminsky
english and maybe french are the only ones that are any good, as far as i know
2013-07-27 17:39:49
seb_kuzminsky
that's because we all work on the english, and tiss works on the french
2013-07-27 17:39:57
jthornton
yes the French docs are fine and a few of the Spanish have been translated
2013-07-27 17:39:58
seb_kuzminsky
the other translations were created but not maintained
2013-07-27 17:40:12
steve_stallings
assuming a good Spanish translation is created, what happens as it grows outdated due to neglect this time around?
2013-07-27 17:40:12
jthornton
yes
2013-07-27 17:40:26
seb_kuzminsky
in the absence of a translator, the translations will certainly bitrot
2013-07-27 17:40:28
jthornton
same as the French it gets outdated
2013-07-27 17:40:55
cradek
I don't think there's a technical solution to that human-problem
2013-07-27 17:40:57
jmk-mcfaul_
its just like any project - in the absence of a maintainer it rots
2013-07-27 17:41:00
seb_kuzminsky
yes
2013-07-27 17:41:04
jthornton
yes
2013-07-27 17:41:10
skunkworks
google translate... ;)
2013-07-27 17:41:11
cradek
(unfortunately)
2013-07-27 17:41:19
elson
Google translate is a joke, it allows you to (barely) understand a simple document, it is VERY rough
2013-07-27 17:41:21
seb_kuzminsky
skunkworks: apparently it doesnt work for technical docs
2013-07-27 17:41:24
jthornton
google translate fails for technical
2013-07-27 17:42:04
cradek
I think we have two questions: what do we do short term, and will someone work on figuring out what to do for the long term
2013-07-27 17:42:05
andypugh
There probably is a system that links translated texts together by paragraph or sentence, and can tag the translations when a related version changes. (I guess that the english docs are likely to be the "master" version, even if that it philosophically unsatisfactory)
2013-07-27 17:42:05
jmk-mcfaul_
but becoming maintainer for a translation is a big task. it would be nice to support incremental translation so the average bi-lingual user can contribute on a "time available" basis
2013-07-27 17:42:19
steve_stallings
sounds like there is no good soulution, on a human decision can determine if the outdated version is worse that no version
2013-07-27 17:42:28
jthornton
the note in each untranslated doc is for developers and translators to tell them where to get the current text
2013-07-27 17:42:41
seb_kuzminsky
andypugh: that's gettext, which we use for strings in our software, and po4a does it for docs
2013-07-27 17:43:10
cradek
I would love it if po4a+weblate would work
2013-07-27 17:43:16
seb_kuzminsky
jmk-mcfaul_: weblate promises to do that, and it works with gettext, so it might work for po4a too
2013-07-27 17:43:20
CaptHindsight
committing to translate and maintain an entire document might be too much work for most, maybe only chapters at a time
2013-07-27 17:43:27
jmk-mcfaul_
it is a difficult problem. suppose we eliminate all untranslated text, and link to the latest english as jthornton proposes
2013-07-27 17:43:28
cradek
wish jepler was here to talk about weblate, which he ran for a while but then shut down
2013-07-27 17:43:38
jmk-mcfaul_
that does nothing about bitrot of the translated parts
2013-07-27 17:43:41
andypugh
It sounds like there is a solutuion, but that it is a lot of work, and needs an at least bilingual dev to do it.
2013-07-27 17:43:51
elson
yes, absolutely.
2013-07-27 17:43:56
zultron
time check: 5 minutes left for discussion
2013-07-27 17:44:01
jthornton
jmk-mcfaul_, we already link to the English docs
2013-07-27 17:44:14
cradek
(jepler is on vacation but should be around before next month's)
2013-07-27 17:44:18
seb_kuzminsky
i don't know if that solution (gettext+po4a+weblate) will actually work, no promises there
2013-07-27 17:44:25
cradek
sure
2013-07-27 17:44:29
jmk-mcfaul_
jthornton, yes, you are proposing that we get rid of the untranslated (and perhaps out of date) text
2013-07-27 17:44:31
cradek
have to investigate it first
2013-07-27 17:44:52
seb_kuzminsky
i can imagine measuring the fraction of translated strings, and not publishing a translation if it's below, say, 5%, or 50%, or 95%
2013-07-27 17:45:05
andypugh
Perhaps the link should point out how effective a way to learn something translating its docs is :-)
2013-07-27 17:45:17
seb_kuzminsky
heh
2013-07-27 17:45:21
jthornton
I'm proposing we delete the German and Polish docs which are not translated at all and put a note in each chapter of the Spanish docs on how to get the latest text to translate
2013-07-27 17:45:38
cradek
yeah I see only upsides to that small step
2013-07-27 17:45:52
jthornton
each chapter of the untranslated Spanish docs
2013-07-27 17:45:55
steve_stallings
I support jthorton's human judgement 8-\\\\0
2013-07-27 17:46:01
seb_kuzminsky
sounds good
2013-07-27 17:46:08
mhaberler
There is no information loss, its in git, so I would say yes
2013-07-27 17:46:14
jmk-mcfaul_
if there is no german in the german translation, then yes, it is stupid to have it
2013-07-27 17:46:19
seb_kuzminsky
i'll volunteer to remove german and polish docs & packages
2013-07-27 17:46:20
andypugh
It isn't like the other translations can't be reinstated if a lunatic translator appears.
2013-07-27 17:46:26
memleak
this might be a bad suggestion but what about intltool?
2013-07-27 17:46:29
jthornton
seb_kuzminsky, thanks
2013-07-27 17:46:40
jthornton
I'll put the notes in the Spanish docs
2013-07-27 17:46:48
seb_kuzminsky
go to vote?
2013-07-27 17:46:53
jmk-mcfaul_
second
2013-07-27 17:46:54
jthornton
yea
2013-07-27 17:47:03
steve_stallings
yes
2013-07-27 17:47:05
mhaberler
yes
2013-07-27 17:47:07
jmk-mcfaul_
yes
2013-07-27 17:47:07
DaveB
yes
2013-07-27 17:47:08
skunkworks
yes
2013-07-27 17:47:09
zultron
aye
2013-07-27 17:47:23
seb_kuzminsky
yes
2013-07-27 17:47:24
cradek
I was too slow
2013-07-27 17:47:27
andypugh
yes
2013-07-27 17:47:28
zultron
aye
2013-07-27 17:47:30
jthornton
lol
2013-07-27 17:47:30
cradek
anyway, i also vote yes
2013-07-27 17:47:30
elson
yes
2013-07-27 17:47:32
jthornton
yes
2013-07-27 17:47:48
jmk-mcfaul_
jthornton voted twice.... tsk tsk
2013-07-27 17:47:59
cradek
ok, thanks for volunteering to fix up the packaging stuff seb_kuzminsky
2013-07-27 17:48:01
seb_kuzminsky
oh, we're doing this in master aka 2.6, not in 2.5, right?
2013-07-27 17:48:04
jthornton
well I agreed to go to vote
2013-07-27 17:48:04
andypugh
No, the area above the subject change was voting to vote :-)
2013-07-27 17:48:10
cradek
zultron: thanks for helping me watch the clock
2013-07-27 17:48:24
jthornton
seb_kuzminsky, good question
2013-07-27 17:48:44
cradek
ooh good question
2013-07-27 17:48:53
jthornton
I would do it in both
2013-07-27 17:49:05
elson
yes, it's not code, do it in both
2013-07-27 17:49:38
elson
I still favor keeping the doc, but having it say "not translation yet written for <language> please help,
2013-07-27 17:49:48
elson
see <doc> for English version.
2013-07-27 17:49:51
cradek
we have menu entries that pull up docs for installed systems. if it breaks those for non-english users we should not do that in a .n release
2013-07-27 17:50:04
elson
Umm, yes.
2013-07-27 17:50:14
seb_kuzminsky
let's just do it in master
2013-07-27 17:50:17
cradek
I don't know what branch I recommend without studying that kind of thing
2013-07-27 17:50:20
jmk-mcfaul_
agree with cradek - a minor release should only fix breakages, not add them
2013-07-27 17:50:26
cradek
I'm fine with master of course
2013-07-27 17:50:34
seb_kuzminsky
arguable these outdated docs are breakage
2013-07-27 17:50:42
jthornton
yes
2013-07-27 17:50:44
zultron
I don't see ssi here, so meeting adjourned?
2013-07-27 17:50:52
cradek
yeah sorta arguably
2013-07-27 17:50:55
mhaberler
I do have an item I consider important which I would like to discuss under a 'Any other business' headline - i.e. non-decision
2013-07-27 17:50:58
andypugh
Suits me, I have stuff to do.
2013-07-27 17:51:11
jthornton
if I install as German does LinuxCNC use the German docs?
2013-07-27 17:51:41
seb_kuzminsky
jthornton: i think if your LANG environment variable is set to "de", many strings in our software show up in german
2013-07-27 17:51:42
zultron
cradek, no prob with the clock, my other agenda is my wife's + my 8th anniversary today. ;)
2013-07-27 17:51:42
cradek
mhaberler: can we do that in the regular channel?
2013-07-27 17:51:52
mhaberler
fine, provided you guys are present
2013-07-27 17:52:03
zultron
See y'all!
2013-07-27 17:52:04
cradek
ok, I think we should adjourn
2013-07-27 17:52:05
jthornton
ok, then that could be a problem in 2.5
2013-07-27 17:52:08
seb_kuzminsky
good meeting, folks! i'll mail out minutes later this weekend
2013-07-27 17:52:24
steve_stallings
I would also like to discuss web site in user channel.
2013-07-27 17:52:28
elson
Thanks, all! Sorry I got here late. Thanks Steve for the reminder!
2013-07-27 17:52:30
seb_kuzminsky
zultron: enjoy your anniversary :-)
2013-07-27 17:52:41
zultron
Thanks1
2013-07-27 17:52:54
seb_kuzminsky
i'll be around in #linuxcnc-devel for afew minutes
2013-07-27 17:53:05
mhaberler
great! so:
2013-07-27 17:53:21
mhaberler
Let me say this - I am a bit angry, but - compatible with the Wichita takeaway that we would cooperate in good faith - I try to make my point in a professional way:
2013-07-27 17:53:21
mhaberler
We did received encouragement - if not to say pressure - to move ahead with the unified build branch and bring it into shape for merging.
2013-07-27 17:53:22
mhaberler
We have arrived at this point - a first candidate is available. This is what we need from you now:
2013-07-27 17:53:37
mhaberler
We need active and constructive work - not just on our side, but by the core developers who express interest. This is what I am requesting you to do - please to read through the - admittedly at this point fragmentary - documentation link I posted, build this branch on your own machines, and report back, ideally via the tracker so issues are not lost. I have already received lots of constructive feedback from many non-core developers
2013-07-27 17:53:51
mhaberler
We routinely test on several platforms (me on 5 different ones), and I do push stuff which I found to at least pass runtests. It is very clear the fundamental changes which this work brings about will also require changes to the build environment, some to the better. We need these to happen, and we cannot effect them since this is not in our control. It is - as things stand - a hopeless cause if the stance is 'you guys push this thr
2013-07-27 17:53:52
mhaberler
the buildbot and we go from there' - this effort will not succeed without a more proactive attitude.
2013-07-27 17:53:52
mhaberler
I hope to continue in the Wichita spirit!
2013-07-27 17:54:28
jmk-mcfaul_
mhaberler, I thought we agreed to continue this discussion in the other channel?
2013-07-27 17:54:35
mhaberler
aja, my fault
2013-07-27 17:54:37
mhaberler
thanks
2013-07-27 17:55:39
archivist
!end
2013-07-27 17:56:29
archivist
!end 201307
2013-07-27 19:06:34
kwallace1
Darn, I missed it again. Maybe next time.
2013-07-27 19:10:07
mhaberler
ah, California, 3.16 mio square miles entirely surrounded by reality ;)
2013-07-27 19:11:00
kwallace1
I like California.
2013-07-27 19:11:33
archivist
kwallace1, http://meetlog.archivist.info/meeting.php?id=201307
2013-07-27 19:12:14
kwallace1
archivist: Thank you.
2013-07-27 19:13:59
mhaberler
oh, me too, lived there a few years and just been there - I read this punch line in a bar in SFO (it just said SFO and 42 square miles)
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